Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door
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Jerry Shugart
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"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 Jn.3:9).
Contrary to the views of some this verse is not teaching that God does not impute sins to the believer. Instead, we can understand that John is speaking of the believer's new nature (His seed remains in him) as being a child of God. Therefore any sin that a Christian might commit is not coming from his regenerate nature but instead from the his walk according to the flesh. That is what Paul is speaking about here:
"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Ro.7:15-17).
As long as the Christian is abiding or is in fellowship with the Lord then he will not sin. This is the same as "walking after the Spirit" (Ro.8:1-2). Here are John's words that are in regard to that principle:
"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not" (1 Jn.3:5-6).
None of these verses are saying that the Lord will not impute sin to the believer.
In His grace,
Jerry
Door
New member
Jerry just referred to Jesus (God's seed), as sin.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In regard to the Christian's "standing" before God as being "in Christ" you are right.
However, the Christian's walk is a different matter. According to your reasoning a Christian cannot become unrighteous after he is saved. But what about these verses?:
"Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb.12:11).
How could this chastening yield righteousness to someone who is already righteous?
According to your reasoning a Christian is cleansed from his sin only once, and that upon conversion.
But what do you say about this verse where Christians are in view, and we can see that at one point during their Christian lives they are not partakers of the Lord's holiness:
"For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness" (Heb.12:10).
There is only one way whereby that a Christian can become "holy" once he is defiled and that is by confession of sins, a confession that brings about the cleansing of sins.
But you say that no cleansing for these people's condition is possible because upon conversion the Christian is cleansed then and never again.
Again, we see that your arguments are based on nothing but assertions, assertions that are easily shown to be in error once they are examined under the light of the Scriptures.
In His grace,
Jerry
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, I made an error, an error which I will correct.
Door
New member
Ahhh.... That explains all of your other posts. :up:
Sorry, but I don't have time to go back and correct all of them.
(1 John 1:8)If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Let me translate that for you:
If Voltaire claims to be without sin, Voltaire deceives himself, and the truth is not in Voltaire.
(1 John 1:10)If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Let me translate this one for you too:
If Voltaire claims he has not sinned, Voltaire makes God out to be a liar, and God's word has no place in Voltaire's life.
Door
New member
First off, Romans 7 is Paul giving his testimony on how the Law led him to Christ. Paul is describing in those verses how the Law showed him that he was in bondage to sin. Paul is NOT a slave of sin, but a slave of righteousness Romans 6:17-18. You want to claim that Paul as a believer is practicing evil (sin), and John says that the one who practices sin is of the devil. A believer does not call himself a wretched man asking who will set him free from death, and that is why Paul is describing how the Law led him to Christ.
Your claim that believers do not abide in Jesus is foolish and heretical.
Door
New member
Let me translate the context for you. Everyone who does what you just did ignores verse 7
"..but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin."
Now, you use your perverted logic and tell us how someone who has just been cleansed of ALL sin, is lying if they say they have no sin.
If you have a spot on your face, and somone cleanses it from your face it is not a lie to say I do not have the spot on my face.
(you won't get that, because you are a retard, but everyone else will).
It would be a lie to say "I have sin", after having been cleansed by the blood of Jesus. In fact, it would be an isult to claim that the blood of Jesus did not cleanse you from sin (which is exactly what you and Jerry are claiming).
Nang, would it suprise you to know that I hate cats?
If we try to pursue this it will lead to a discussion about Calvinism, and it would get off the subject of the thread. So we will just have to agree to disagree.
Door
New member
:thumb:
That is exactly what I just did.
Your argument against voltaire was fully defeated by the word of the Lord.
:bang:
No you didn't. You have been walking in darkness since the one on one started. (and who knows how long before)
Everything you say is from the dark until you execute 1 John 1:9
Door
New member
Let's put an end to your lies once and for all.
If someone is cleansed from all sin (by the blood of Jesus), are they lying if they say the have no sin?
Yes or No.
If you respond with anything other than a yes or no answer then you have conceded that you are a liar.
elected4ever
New member
It seems to me that most Christians believe in a carnal faith and not SPIRITUAL FAITH. When you say that you sin, are you judging a spiritual action or a carnal action? Need I remind everyone that when you perform deeds of well worship you offend people. You cannot practice a carnal faith without sining. So every time you say that you sin you are telling me that you are practicing a carnal faith and not a spiritual faith. You are of the flesh and not of the spirit.
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Your Carnality)
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Do you judge yourself and others by your carnal expression which is by its nature dead to God or by the spirit which is life and peace?
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Your Carnality)
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Do you judge yourself and others by your carnal expression which is by its nature dead to God or by the spirit which is life and peace?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
I claim no such thing. It is the resurrection life of Christ abiding within the believer, that gives every Christian hope and assurance of victory over deserved death:
"The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law, but thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." I Corinthians 15:56-57.
God is dealing with me, a sinner by nature, via His love and grace and the power of His indwelling Holy Spirit, by granting me continuous repentance from my proclivity to sin, and continually interceding for me and cleansing me from all unrighteousness:
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9
"If we are faithless, He remain faithful; He cannot deny Himself." II Timothy 2:13
Here is where your thinking is faulty. Your sins and sin nature have not been removed from your person. You are still subject to sin. Your sins have been paid for, past, present and future . . .but you will wrestle with sin until the day you escape your physical body.
It was your guilt and the sentence of death that was LEGALLY imputed to Christ on the cross, that has been forensically removed by Jesus Christ, not commission of the deeds themselves. God's justice has been satisfied by Christ, on your behalf. God chooses not to look at your mortal failures, but chooses to see you abiding in His Son, and His Son abiding in you, accounting you as "righteous" according to LEGAL imputation.
Your sins are no longer held against you under the law. You have been freed from the Law and now function according to grace.
And now you can live out this earthly life, free from condemnation and future judgment, because Christ suffered your judgment and deserved death sentence on your behalf. You have been justified in God's court of Law, prior to your future glorification and resurrection to everlasting life.
Legally, under the Law, God no longer holds you guilty for your sins and sinfulness, for Christ vicariously withstood all punishment in your stead. And in His office as Mediator and High Priest, Christ continually intercedes as your legal Advocate, at the right hand of God.
This does not make you sinless, however. You still sin, and if you say you do not sin, you lie.
Amen. These are the wonderful fruits of Godly grace.
You are misapplying this Scripture. Read it again. It pertains to the Levitical priesthood, and their inability to purify sinners according to the Law. All the blood offerings they annually presented on the altar to God were never able to take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4)
Jesus Christ came to offer Himself as sacrifice for the sins of His people; once for all, and "this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God." (Hebrews 10:12)
"For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:14
Forensic Justification = "He has perfected forever . . ."
Progressive Sanctification = ". . . who are being sanctified."
You are not discerning the divine process: 1. Legal justification 2. Sanctification 3. Glorification
You are just (lazily, IMO) lumping all of these facts together and mixing terms without making thorough and necessary theological distinctions.
Praise God, you do! May God richly bless you with spiritual growth and further insights into His wonderful truths.
For you are not finished learning, yet . . .
Nang
The Lord Jesus Christ bore in His own body on the Cross every sin you have ever committed or ever will commit (I Pet. 2:24).
By His death He also made provision for you to overcome the sin nature and to confess and isolate every sin in the Christian life.
At the moment of salvation every believer is both indwelt and filled with the Holy Spirit. These two ministries are not identical and should never be confused. You (door) keep confusing the two ministries, thus all your problems.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a permanent relationship, regardless of our carnality or spirituality. The filling of the Holy Spirit is temporary fellowship determined by our carnality or spirituality.
If you cannot understand that there are two different issues here, than it is pointless to continue to talk to you.
Door
New member
I knew it! You do not have the intelligence to answer a single question.
This is your last chance.
I just want to see if you are capable of answering a question that a 4 year old can answer.
If I have a quarter in my hand and you take the quarter out of my hand, would I be lying if I said I still have a quarter in my hand?
Yes or No?
Would you be lying if you said I still have the quarter in my hand?
Yes or No?
Would I be lying if I said I no longer have a quarter in my hand?
Yes or No?
If you cannot answer these 3 elementary questions, then everyone will know, with certainty, that you are in fact a retard.
JCWR
New member
Odd. I guess I have to side with Door on his assessment of your cognitive skills.
I guess Matthew Henry, etc. below all had similar wonderful imaginations, since they all say the same things.
Henry: For the conviction of such professors as have no true fellowship with God: If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. It is known that to walk, in scripture account, is to order and frame the course and actions of the moral life, that is, of the life so far as it is capable of subjection to the divine law. To walk in darkness is to live and act according to such ignorance, error, and erroneous practice, as are contrary to the fundamental dictates of our holy religion. Now there may be those who may pretend to great attainments and enjoyments in religion; they may profess to have communion with God; and yet their lives may be irreligious, immoral, and impure. To such the apostle would not fear to give the lie: They lie, and do not the truth. They belie God; for he holds no heavenly fellowship or intercourse with unholy souls. What communion hath light with darkness? They belie themselves, or lie concerning themselves; for they have no such communications from God nor accesses to him. There is no truth in their profession nor in their practice, or their practice gives their profession and pretences the lie, and demonstrates the folly and falsehood of them.
Wallace: The relationship of the phrase keep on walking to if we say is very important for understanding the problem expressed in 1John 1:6. If one should say (εἴπωμεν, eipwmen) that he has fellowship with God, and yet continues walking (περιπατῶμεν, peripatwmen) in the darkness, then it follows (in the apodosis, the "then" clause) that he is lying and not practicing the truth.
Courson: We cannot say, "I'm close to the Lord and I'm miserable. I'm walking with Jesus; I'm at the table; I'm in the Word—and am I ever depressed." We're kidding ourselves if we say we have fellowship with Jesus but walk around in darkness.Gill: 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him,.... The Alexandrian copy reads, "for if we say": that is, if any profess to be partakers of the divine nature, to be like unto God, and to have communion with him, to have the light of his countenance, and the discoveries of his love:
and walk in darkness; in the darkness of sin, ignorance, and unbelief, or are in a state of unregeneracy and blindness; whose understandings are darkened, and they know not God in Christ, nor have any true sight and sense of themselves, their sin and danger; and are ignorant of Christ and his righteousness, and the way of salvation by him; and are strangers to the Spirit of God, and the work of his grace; and are unacquainted with the truths of the Gospel; and not only so, but go on in darkness more and more; prefer it to the light, love it, and the works of it; have fellowship with them, and choose them; take pleasure in the ways of sin and wickedness, and continue, and walk on in them; if such persons pretend to fellowship with God, they are liars:
we lie; it cannot be, it is a contradiction, the thing is impossible and impracticable; what communion hath light with darkness? or what fellowship can the throne of iniquity, or those in whom sin reigns, have with God? for God is light, and were they partakers of him, or like unto him, or had communion with him, they would consequently be in the light, and not in darkness, and much less walk in it; wherefore they are liars,
and do not the truth: they do not say the truth, nor act according to it; they do not act uprightly or sincerely, but are hypocrites, and pretend to that which they have not; and if they did the truth, they would come to the light, and not walk in darkness; see John 3:21.
I go on citing dozens more just to demonstrate how blinded you are to your own interpretation.
:bang:
Every time you get backed into a corner, you try to change the topic.
Nang had incredible foresight when she said the following on the very first day:
And Nang with even more accurate foresight predicted how your character would surface as the debate progressed with 100% accuracy :
When you are confronted with honest questions that you cannot answer you continue to resort to ad hominen attacks, or attempt to change the subject.
This is going nowhere. Jerry and me are wasting our time.
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