Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[Nang]

I suggest that a God-centered focus will help this discussion, for many of the arguments prove to be man-centered.

When contemplating confession of sins, a Christian should approach such an exercise resting and trusting in the promises of God. The believer's mindset should be set upon the power of life provided in the continual, priestly mediatorship of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore." Hebrews 7:11-28 (Emphasis, mine.)

This Scripture makes it plain that believers should not be counselled unto holiness according to the old covenant of works and law, but should be counselled to focus on the new covenant of grace, worked and gifted by their High Priest, Jesus Christ.

Human sinfulness is no longer dealt with according to Law, but according to the power of life that is provided by Christ. Christians do not battle to stop sinning, but "hunger and thirst" to live in spiritual light and the love of God. The shift is not primarily away from sin, but is a shift towards a genuine desire to serve righteousness.

When we rest in the mediatorship, love, and power of our Lord, the effects of sin are diminished by His presence, power, and interventions. (If sin does not diminish in the life of one professing faith in Jesus Christ, there is a spiritual problem and the possibility of hypocrisy.)

Your last post was good, Door, because you focused on the light of God, and not on the darkness of men.

Nang

 

[Nang]

Jerry,

I found your last post on the one on one to be contradictory and confusing.

It is impossible for any kind of man (believer or unbeliever) to DO what it takes to get victory over sin/death.

A believer must be encouraged to REST in Christ, not DO.

Victory over sin/death comes through the mediatorship of Jesus Christ, who continually applies the efficacy of His blood atonement and forever keeps us cleansed from our sins. Appreciation of this wonderful priestly power, diminishes the power of sin in our lives.

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:16

Nang

 

[Door]

Door's mistaken beliefs have been exposed.

You're living in fantasy land. :kookoo:

Paul also tells the Christian not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness:

" And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph.5:11).​

This demonstrates that a Christian can in fact have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. If the Christian has to be told not to have fellowship with these things of darkness then it follows that it is possible that they can indeed have fellowship with the things of darkness. And if a Christian can have fellowship with the works of darkness then it is certain that they can indeed have fellowship with darkness.

The "works" of darkness, Jerry. Not to fellowship with the WORKS of darkness. You are so completely undone that you will grasp at anything. You are begging. You are stumbling around in your pool of darkness. It's pathetic. You need to come to Christ, and receive His life, so that you can see where you are going. :chuckle:

My post proved that believers are NOT in darkness, and that it is unbelievers who are in darkness. Believers are in the light. YOU are in darkness because you have NO light in YOU.

 

[tetelestai]

I suggest that a God-centered focus will help this discussion, for many of the arguments prove to be man-centered.

When contemplating confession of sins, a Christian should approach such an exercise resting and trusting in the promises of God. The believer's mindset should be set upon the power of life provided in the continual, priestly mediatorship of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore." Hebrews 7:11-28 (Emphasis, mine.)

This Scripture makes it plain that believers should not be counselled unto holiness according to the old covenant of works and law, but should be counselled to focus on the new covenant of grace, worked and gifted by their High Priest, Jesus Christ.

Human sinfulness is no longer dealt with according to Law, but according to the power of life that is provided by Christ. Christians do not battle to stop sinning, but "hunger and thirst" to live in spiritual light and the love of God. The shift is not primarily away from sin, but is a shift towards a genuine desire to serve righteousness.

When we rest in the mediatorship, love, and power of our Lord, the effects of sin are diminished by His presence, power, and interventions. (If sin does not diminish in the life of one professing faith in Jesus Christ, there is a spiritual problem and the possibility of hypocrisy.)

Your last post was good, Door, because you focused on the light of God, and not on the darkness of men.

Nang

Nang, you can’t use Hebrews to teach Church Age doctrine.

At the time it was written, Hebrews applied to Jews who believed Christ was the Messiah before the Church Age doctrines were fully known and established in Acts 15.

However, now, Hebrews speaks directly to Hebrews who will be alive during the Tribulation.

 

[Door]

Jerry is going to be so depressed after my next post. :chuckle:

He has missed the whole message of what John is saying, because he is so focused on himself and not on Christ.

Too bad little Jerry.

:loser:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry,

It is impossible for any kind of man (believer or unbeliever) to DO what it takes to get victory over sin/death.

I never said that.

A believer must be encouraged to REST in Christ, not DO.

To recognize one's own sins is not "doing," at all, any more than "believing" is not doing.

Victory over sin/death comes through the mediatorship of Jesus Christ, who continually applies the efficacy of His blood atonement and forever keeps us cleansed from our sins. Appreciation of this wonderful priestly power, diminishes the power of sin in our lives.

Yes, the blood cleanseth the Christian from sin, and in order to receive this cleansing one must recognize or confess his sins" (1 Jn.19).

Perhaps you would explain why the words of John at 1 John 1:9 do not apply to the Christian. After all, John was a Christian and the ones who received his words were Christians.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The "works" of darkness, Jerry. Not to fellowship with the WORKS of darkness. You are so completely undone that you will grasp at anything.

I am begging?

No, my friend, it is you who continues to throw your reason to the wind so that you can cling to your fables.

Let us again look at what John said:

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph.5:11).​

Paul warns Christians not to have "fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness."

That means that a Christian can in fact have fellowship with the works of darkness.

And here is your answer:

The "works" of darkness, Jerry. Not to fellowship with the WORKS of darkness.

According to your ideas even if a Christian is having "fellowship with the works of darkness" then somehow we must imagine that he is not having fellowship with darkness.

Some people will say anything, no matter how ridiculous!

According to you a Christian can have fellowship with the works of darkness but at the same time he is not having fellowship with darkness!

Donm't you ever get tired of twisting the Scriptures in order to attempt to make them fit your mistaken views?

 

[Nang]

Nang, you can’t use Hebrews to teach Church Age doctrine.

At the time it was written, Hebrews applied to Jews who believed Christ was the Messiah before the Church Age doctrines were fully known and established in Acts 15.

However, now, Hebrews speaks directly to Hebrews who will be alive during the Tribulation.

Aaargh . . . the confusing clouds of dispensationalism that obfuscate Scriptural truths given for every age and to believers of all eras.

Jesus Christ is my High Priest, today, tomorrow and forever.

Nang

 

[Nang]

Yes, the blood cleanseth the Christian from sin, and in order to receive this cleansing one must recognize or confess his sins" (1 Jn.19).

As soon as one teaches one "must" do something to receive justification, one nullifies salvation by grace.

Perhaps you would explain why the words of John at 1 John 1:9 do not apply to the Christian. After all, John was a Christian and the ones who received his words were Christians.

I believe the words of John apply to Christians. John is teaching the mechanics of the continual priesthood of Jesus Christ. I do not believe one can properly interpret I John 1:9 apart from Hebrews 7:11-28 and Hebrews 4:16. Scripture interprets itself, remember. atrol:

Nang

 

[Door]

Jerry, can a Christian go into an idols temple? Yes or no?

Can a Christian eat meat sacrificed to an idol? Yes or no?

The word in Ephesians for fellowship is Sugkoinoneo, not Koinonia, as in 1 John 1:6.

I will do you a favor, and give you some time to do further research.

Instead of you embarrassing yourself even further, I will give you the opportunity to retract your last post, and to try again, before this whole thing blows up in your face, and you have to run and hide.

 

[Da'Saint]

No, not pick and choose. Besides having the Scriptures to tell us what is right and wrong we also have our conscience. We should confess any and all things that we have done that we believe are sins.

There are some self proclaimed Christians on this forum who have said that they do not sin.

What do you mean that those words are "used as a general assembly"?

The fact of the matter is that John is writing to Christians (1 Jn.2:12) and he is a Christian himself so when he uses the words "we" and "our" those words must be in reference to believers.

Those words are not used in a generic way, and the "context" proves it. After all, what support from the Scriptures can anyone give which demonstrates that anyone other than a Christian can have their sins cleansed upon confession. A sinner must believe the gospel before any confession brings about a cleansing from sins.

Here Paul speaks of a sanctification that is in regard to one's walk:

"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness" (1 Thess. 4:3-7).​

Here Paul says that this is the will of God, even our "sanctification," that we should abstain from fornication.

This is speaking of a sanctification in our walk. It certainly is not speaking of the same sanctification at Hebrews 10:10.

Can you see the difference?

The Lord has called us to holiness in our walk, which is related to our service for the Lord. And we are to keep ourselves "holy" in regard to our service:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).​

Can you see the difference?

In His grace,
Jerry

Sorry Bro,
It is nothing personal, I just simply disagree!

What do you mean that those words are "used as a general assembly"?

I personaly believe that this letter was an open letter to combat the gnostic teaching that was infusing itself into some of the early churches! But we won't get into that right now. (I can see you already have your hands full with other things.) The letter has no greeting or statement of address to it? According to your theory, if the "we" refers to christians, then who is the "you" in verse 5? Further more, John clearly tells us what cleanses us from all sin in verse 7. (by the way, it is not confession of sin!)

Those words are not used in a generic way, and the "context" proves it. After all, what support from the Scriptures can anyone give which demonstrates that anyone other than a Christian can have their sins cleansed upon confession. A sinner must believe the gospel before any confession brings about a cleansing from sins.

Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Yes, in our "standing" as risen with Christ and sitting in the heavenlies with Christ. But our "walk" is an entirely different matter.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
I recieved by faith! I walk by faith!

 

[Da'Saint]

That’s my point, you will never live up to God’s standard, nor will any other believer. A believer sins every day. Thus the need for 1 John 1:9

The Doctrine of Hamartiology (sin) has many categories of sin that are unknown to most believers until they examine them in the Bible.

The more Bible doctrine a believer metabolizes, the more spiritually mature they become.

So what you are saying is: God doesn't count the sin that you aren't aware of. CORRECT?

 

[tetelestai]

My original question from my original post in this thread:

For those who do not believe in confessing of sins, please explain why God disciplines believers? Also explain how or why the discipline ends?

So far, no one has given an answer.

Some people respond to discipline from the Lord with bitterness and continue in bitterness. They become obstructionists, miserable people who are obstacles to their own spiritual growth and to the spiritual lives of others. They will never recover and become oriented to grace again, unless they understand the true purpose of discipline.

Since the moment we were saved God has always dealt with us in grace. He disciplines in grace; He forgives in grace; He blesses in grace.

Naming a sin, forgetting the sin, and moving forward is the epitome of grace.

 

[tetelestai]

So what you are saying is: God doesn't count the sin that you aren't aware of. CORRECT?

God doesn’t count any sin against any believer. All sins have been paid for by Christ for believers.

Again this is all about temporal fellowship with God after salvation. In order to go from carnality to spiritually, the believer needs to name any known sins. By doing so, all unknown sins are forgiven also, and the believer is back to walking in the light.

 

[dreadknought]

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> For those who do not believe in confessing of sins, please explain why God disciplines believers? Also explain how or why the discipline ends? </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
So far, no one has given an answer.

Afternoon tete,
1. Sanctification.
2. The believer overcomes the shortcoming/problem/sin. The Holy Spirit convicts the conscious and the elect are transformed into a more mature state after mortifying the sin.

The confessing of sin comes before the blood of Christ is applied to the convert.

 

[Da'Saint]

Mr. Shugart,

1Jo 1:5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

These words are somewhat different that the words John writes later about fellowship and confession to the christian.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jo 4:14 ¶ And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As soon as one teaches one "must" do something to receive justification, one nullifies salvation by grace.

Are you so deep in your Calvinists ideas that you do not even understand that a person must "believe" the gospel in order to be justified?

Do yopu deny that?

Secondly, the cleansing from sin in 1 John 1:9 is not about justification but about sanctification.

I believe the words of John apply to Christians. John is teaching the mechanics of the continual priesthood of Jesus Christ. I do not believe one can properly interpret I John 1:9 apart from Hebrews 7:11-28 and Hebrews 4:16. Scripture interprets itself, remember.

So if you believe that Joihn's words at 1 John 1:9 applies to Christianms then you should realize that the Christian must confess his sins in order to be cleansed from the defilement which results from those sins.

It is that simple!

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[tetelestai]

the elect are transformed into a more mature state after mortifying the sin.

Hi Student Ad X

Are you a Calvinist? I ask only because of the “elect” reference.

Can you expand on “transformed into a more mature state after mortifying the sin”, and reference scripture please.

Thanks

 

[dreadknought]

The "elect" is a direct quote from Scripture and John Calvin was not wrong about everything.

 

[Da'Saint]

God doesn’t count any sin against any believer. All sins have been paid for by Christ for believers.

Again this is all about temporal fellowship with God after salvation. In order to go from carnality to spiritually, the believer needs to name any known sins. By doing so, all unknown sins are forgiven also, and the believer is back to walking in the light.

God doesn’t count any sin against any believer

Not according to what you are telling me? According to you, if I don't confess it, God breaks his fellowship with me the believer!

Again this is all about temporal fellowship with God after salvation.

Christ didn't suffer and die for me to have a "temporary fellowship"!
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

all unknown sins are forgiven also

Col 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

and the believer is back to walking in the light.

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Quit trying and start trusting!!