Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[tetelestai]

Are you so deep in your Calvinists ideas that you do not even understand that a person must "believe" the gospel in order to be justified?

Nang is a Supralapsarianist, therefore she believes in double predestination.

This should answer your question.

 

[tetelestai]

The "elect" is a direct quote from Scripture and John Calvin was not wrong about everything.

I agree 100%

 

[Nang]

Are you so deep in your Calvinists ideas that you do not even understand that a person must "believe" the gospel in order to be justified?

Do yopu deny that?

Yes, I deny that, because the Bible does not teach it.

The only "must" is taught by Jesus, who said: "Unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

And this essential regeneration is dependent upon the grace of God.

All sinners, regenerated to new life by the power of Christ's Holy Spirit, WILL believe through the gift of faith given to him by God.

Secondly, the cleansing from sin in 1 John 1:9 is not about justification but about sanctification.

Actually, I agree with you about this. Sanctification is a continual cleansing and application of the priestly atonement of Jesus Christ, performed by Christ. Justification was accomplished on the cross. Sanctification unto holiness occurs during the lifetime of the Christian.

So if you believe that Joihn's words at 1 John 1:9 applies to Christianms then you should realize that the Christian must confess his sins in order to be cleansed from the defilement which results from those sins.

I don't like the word "must." For it is the indwelling Holy Spirit who intercedes on our behalf, and motivates us to pray for helps in time of need.

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26&27

Nang

 

[dreadknought]

Can you expand on “transformed into a more mature state after mortifying the sin”, and reference scripture please.

Thanks

Tete,
Sorry for the delay. Firefox addon update and had to get the Scripture typed up.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death (mortify KJV) the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, NASB

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I personaly believe that this letter was an open letter to combat the gnostic teaching that was infusing itself into some of the early churches!

But John makes it plain that the letter was written to believers (1 Jn.2:12). I see no evidence whatsoever that John's words were meant for anyone other than Christians.

According to your theory, if the "we" refers to christians, then who is the "you" in verse 5?

Of course it is those described at 1 John 2:12, those who have already had their sins forgiven,i.e. Christians.

Further more, John clearly tells us what cleanses us from all sin in verse 7. (by the way, it is not confession of sin!)

Yes, John is telling these Christians that the blood cleans, in the present tense. Not has cleansed. So he is not speaking of his salvation or the salvation of those to whom his letter was addressed. If he was he would have told them, The blood of the Lord did clean us from sin. But that is not what he said.

John is speaking of a cleansing of sin for those who are already saved. Do you believe in a cleansing of sin for those who are already saved?

Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Go back a couple of verses and you will see that Paul is speaking about the rightousness of God that comes unto all that "believe," and not those who confess their sins.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Are you under the impression that confessing the Lord Jesus is the same thing as confessing one's sin?

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
I recieved by faith! I walk by faith!

Evidently you could not see the difference between the sanctification of Hebrews 10 and the santification of 1 Thessalonians 4 if that is the only answer that you can give.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The word in Ephesians for fellowship is Sugkoinoneo, not Koinonia, as in 1 John 1:6.

Are you saying that the word at Ephesians does not mean fellowship?

Or what are you saying?

Instead of you embarrassing yourself even further, I will give you the opportunity to retract your last post, and to try again, before this whole thing blows up in your face, and you have to run and hide.

I see that you did not even to attempt to defend your idea that the Christians can enter into fellowship with John if they believed that "John is indeed someone who heard, saw, touched, and witnessed Jesus coming in the flesh." That is what you said:

They can indeed have fellowship with John, if they take the opportunity to accept that John is indeed someone who heard, saw, touched, and witnessed Jesus coming in the flesh.

I said the following to answer your assertion and you did not even attempt to defend what you said before nor did you even attempt to prove that what I say is wrong:

No, that is not what they must accept in order to have fellowship with John, the same fellowship that John has with the Father and Son.

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:3-7).​

John is saying that in order for them to have fellowship with one another (including the Father and the Son) they must walk in the light.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nang, I asked you if you deny that a person must believe the gospel in order to be justified"

Are you so deep in your Calvinists ideas that you do not even understand that a person must "believe" the gospel in order to be justified?

In answer you said:

Yes, I deny that, because the Bible does not teach it.

Then what do you think that Paul means when he uses the phrase "justified by faith" (Ro.5:1)?

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Da'Saint]

Go back a couple of verses and you will see that Paul is speaking about the rightousness of God that comes unto all that "believe," and not those who confess their sins

.

Really? That is exactly the point that I was tryin to make! (good job!!)

Are you under the impression that confessing the Lord Jesus is the same thing as confessing one's sin?

No! If you haven't got it yet? here ya go! I DO NOT BELIEVE IN CONFESSING ONES SIN!

Are there any other New Testament scriptures that speaks of confessing sin for forgiveness????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[Door]

Jerry.. I'm giving you time to retract your last post. I'm being gracious. You need to look again at what John said, why he said it, and who it was that is in darkness in the context of the letter. Hint: It is not the Christians he is writing to, therefore it must be...

Your brain is stuck in park. You think that it is the believers who are walking in darkness. You're not paying attention. I know what you are saying. I have known about what you are teaching for 25 years. You think you are right, and I know why you are not. I addressed why Christians are not in darkness, and I FULLY explained to you why John is telling them that they may fellowship with John.

You are not getting it, because you have a stubborn prideful heart, and lack the ears to hear. I'll give you another day to go over what I said again, and see if maybe someone else can help you. I'm not saying that you have to agree with me, but you don't even have a clue what I am saying, nor do you care.

 

[Da'Saint]

Also, if the term "my little children" is your smokin gun to seal the case that John is speaking to christians? Why is the term not used in the first chapter? I believe that the entire letter is written to christians! It is the first chapter that is in question correct? Why do you think John felt the need to use such clarification ("my little children")at the begining of the second chapter? Where he is clearly speaking to christians!

1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Of course it is those described at 1 John 2:12, those who have already had their sins forgiven,i.e. Christians.

Notice verse one? "If any man sin" how do you come up with that being past tense and have already had their sin forgiven???

 

[Nang]

Then what do you think that Paul means when he uses the phrase "justified by faith" (Ro.5:1)?

It means one is justified apart from their own works. Belief is the result of faith which is the result of justification which is the result of God's grace.

You fail to discern between theological terms and therefore miss the significance of each.

Sloppy . . .

Nang

 

[tetelestai]

you can take your two circles theory and shove it straight to hell where it belongs.

This HERE is not my circle analogy, but it is a similar analogy showing a "carnal believer" that uses circles. I just found this website about a half hour ago, so therefore it had no influence in my circle analogy this morning.

I found it ironic to find a site that also used circles to explain the Spirit filled life. Coincidence?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You need to look again at what John said, why he said it, and who it was that is in darkness in the context of the letter. Hint: It is not the Christians he is writing to, therefore it must be...

Door, why should anyone trust your interpretation of these verses since you blundered in regard to what the Christians needed to do so that they might have the opportunity to be in fellowship

You have not even attempted to defend your view.

You have been bragging that you are going to prove that John is not telling the Christian to confess his sins but so far you have done nothing except prove that you are confused.

I'll give you another day to go over what I said again, and see if maybe someone else can help you. I'm not saying that you have to agree with me, but you don't even have a clue what I am saying, nor do you care.

Go ahead and post now. I am not going to change my last post. You have been bragging on your next post so it is time to get it out there.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Door]

Door, why should anyone trust your interpretation of these verses since you blundered in regard to what the Christians needed to do so that they might have the opportunity to be in fellowship

You are a liar. I have done no such thing. You are the ONLY person on this site who thinks that. The ONLY one. You are so filled with self-righteous pride, you reek.

My interpretation is SPOT ON, and you are completely deluded in your cesspool of deception. I have "blundered" nothing. You are blind, deaf, and stupid.

I completely and fully addressed the questions, you worthless pig. You just lack the ability to comprehend it. it is ALL THERE. Just READ IT, you dungslinging donkey's butt.

You can sit and stew. I finished ny commentary before we even started. I just like to watch you sweat. :loser:

 

[tetelestai]

You are a liar. I have done no such thing. You are the ONLY person on this site who thinks that. The ONLY one. You are so filled with self-righteous pride, you reek.

I think you blundered, so that means Jerry isn't the ONLY person who thinks so.

Again, you have made another false statement.

 

[Door]

I think you blundered, so that means Jerry isn't the ONLY person who thinks that.

Where? Prove it. Right now.

 

[Door]

I think you are a liar tetelestai. In fact, I'm certain of it.

Prove where I have "blundered. Do it right now, or admit that you have lied.

 

[Door]

Come on, tetelestai, It's been at least 8 minutes, where is your proof?

 

[Door]

tetelestai... If you KNEW I blundered, you would already know what I said.

You could quickly back it up, but you did not.

 

[tetelestai]

I think you are a liar tetelestai. In fact, I'm certain of it.

Prove where I have "blundered. Do it right now, or admit that you have lied.

You stated that John’s audience could only have fellowship with one another if they accept that John is indeed someone who heard, saw, touched, and witnessed Jesus coming in the flesh.

Originally posted by door:
They can indeed have fellowship with John, if they take the opportunity to accept that John is indeed someone who heard, saw, touched, and witnessed Jesus coming in the flesh.

John is clearly stating that in order for the fellow believers to have fellowship with one another they need to “walk in the light”, which is the same fellowship that John has with God.