Did God Raise Jesus From The Dead Or Did Jesus Christ Raise Himself?

[Stevo1]

This is how i see it if your natural father gave you some money and said son go to the shop and buy me a loaf of bread. So you go the shop and ask the shop keeper for a loaf of bread. He would then say the price and you would give them the money to buy the loaf. Now the son has obeyed the father but isn't the father but is the one who was sent but he would not be able to get that loaf of bread without the power of word and have been given the money both of which are from the father, neither did the son have until the father give it to him, but still the son had the power to do this as Jesus had the power to lay down his life and have the power to take it again as his father had given him.
Right through his life Jesus only did what his father told him to do and he always obeyed him. Without the father he couldn't do anything just as we without God through Jesus Christ by the power of the holy spirit without.

 

[oatmeal]

Same thing, Oats. The LORD our God is ONE LORD.

Yes indeed, the Lord our God is one Lord.

And the one Lord God chose to have a son that would carry out the Lord God's will and redeem mankind from their sins.

The son is the lord Jesus Christ, lord, jr. if you will.

The son is obedient to the Father because it is required of children to honor their father and mother. This Jesus did and that is what we are to do as sons of God, I John 3:2 Romans 8:14.....

We, as sons of God, are to do the same works as Jesus Christ and greater works than what Jesus Christ did. John 14:12

What works did Jesus Christ do? What are those greater works?

Did Jesus raise himself from the dead? Then we should raise ourselves from the dead, See I Thessalonians 4:13-18

 

[jamie]

We will be "just" like him with regard to being the same kind as are all siblings.

We won't be just like him in terms of having the same name and authority, we may not have the same taste in food or music. Our house may be different, we may not comb our hair the same and we will not generate life. Jesus is the last Adam and we are also different from Adam.

We are heirs of the Father the same as our brother Jesus, the Christ. We are not Jesus and Jesus is not us. We are not the King of kings, just one of the kings. We are not the Lord of lords, just one of the lords.

We are children of the Father, not his pet dogs or cats, not parakeets or lizards and not his pet snake.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree and all that stuff.

 

[Oleander]

So what is the answer to your question?

"who gave (Jesus) the power to do so?"

Who had the power to give Jesus that power?

Until Jesus was given that power, did he have any power?

What does "ALL" mean?

Does the giver of the power now have no power because the giver gave "ALL" power to Jesus?

>>>Exactly that what I am trying to say.

Jesus can't do anything on his own. He depend on his God for everything, and that's not my word it was his words.

The Giver never the same as the receiver. Anyone disagree he have to take it with Jesus.

If Jesus did anything on his own, then Jesus was a liar. And I don't believe he was.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Yes, he is.

and one fits all verse.

I disagree.

I don't think Patrick is a one verse believer.

I think he realizes that if the Bible says something.... it is true.

It doesn't matter if it is stated in one verse or dozens of verses. Each verse is true.

There is a false dichotomy in this discussion.

Did Jesus raise Himself or did God?

Well, it isn't either/or....it is both/and and glorydaz's posts in #2 and 5 explain why.

I think it is unfair to accuse Patrick of being a one verse believer.

People who are ignoring the verse that he brought up could just as easily be called "selective scripturers" because I don't think I've seen anyone address the verse he brought up.

People are dismissing it simply because there are more verses that say something else.

But that isn't a good way to do theology. "yeah, the Bible says this....but it says this more!"

So far, I'd say glorydaz has harmonized the Scriptures best as explained in (her, I believe?) post #'s 2 and 5.

 

[meshak]

I disagree.

I don't think Patrick is a one verse believer.

I think he realizes that if the Bible says something.... it is true.

It doesn't matter if it is stated in one verse or dozens of verses. Each verse is true.

There is a false dichotomy in this discussion.

Did Jesus raise Himself or did God?

Well, it isn't either/or....it is both/and and glorydaz's posts in #2 and 5 explain why.

I think it is unfair to accuse Patrick of being a one verse believer.

People who are ignoring the verse that he brought up could just as easily be called "one verse ignorers" because I don't think I've seen anyone address the verse he brought up.

People are dismissing it simply because there are more verses that say something else.

But that isn't a good way to do theology. "yeah, the Bible says this....but it says this more!"

So far, I'd say glorydaz has harmonized the Scriptures best as explained in (her, I believe?) post #'s 2 and 5.

Suit yourself. He quotes the scripture, yet he does not know what he is quoting.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Let's agree Jesus raised himself.

According to Jesus, who gave (Jesus) the power to do so?

Matt.28:18 ALL authority in heaven and earth has been GIVEN to me.

God the Father did. And here's why:

Because Jesus, even though He has the Divine Nature and attributes of God, freely chose to empty Himself of those attributes and take on human flesh.

That is what is talked about in Philippians 2:5-9.

Being "in the form of God" means having the divine attributes.....it means being God.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

First you claim it is the soul which is not dead when people die, then you want to try and back that up by saying it is the spirit which does not die.

Yeah. You are right. I tend to use those terms interchangeably. As synonyms.

Behind all that is the unbelief that Christ died, which is the cornestone idea of spiritism and talking to the dead.

Unbelief that Christ died? No. I believe that Jesus Christ died. Remembering it especially today on Good Friday.

And I don't believe in Spiritism which, unless I am mistaken, is basically reincarnation but in human form only.

God is the God of the living. Of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (even though they died).

And Jesus even talked to Moses during His Transfiguration even though Moses had died.

How is that possible?

Because death is the separation of the human body from the soul/spirit and the soul/spirit lives on.

Death is not a ceasing to exist entirely as in a complete obliteration.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Scripture please.

For what?

Define soul.

The life principle of a body I guess.

Jesus was a man, not God.

Nope. Jesus was fully man and fully God.

The logos that was in him is a created form of God.

Can you back that up with a Scripture verse?

"created form of God"?

Can you clarify what you mean by that please?

I haven't read about that in the Bible yet.

 

[glorydaz]

We will be "just" like him with regard to being the same kind as are all siblings.

We won't be just like him in terms of having the same name and authority, we may not have the same taste in food or music. Our house may be different, we may not comb our hair the same and we will not generate life. Jesus is the last Adam and we are also different from Adam.

We are heirs of the Father the same as our brother Jesus, the Christ. We are not Jesus and Jesus is not us. We are not the King of kings, just one of the kings. We are not the Lord of lords, just one of the lords.

We are children of the Father, not his pet dogs or cats, not parakeets or lizards and not his pet snake.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree and all that stuff.

John didn't quite see it that way when He saw Him. John fell at His feet as though dead.

We may reign with Him, but we will never forget we were bought with a price. Ephesians 6:6

Rev. 1:13-18 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last. I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.​

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

That is a very strong opinion.

What is? The whole post?

Your error is that is does address John 10:18 quite directly.

That is not true. It not only doesn't address John 10:18 directly, it doesn't even address John 10:18 indirectly. It completely ignores John 10:18.

In that verse Jesus clearly says that He Himself has the power to lay down His life and He Himself has the power to take it up again.

How can that verse be harmonized with the verses that say God raised Jesus?

glorydaz showed us that in post #5.

Listing Scriptures that say that God raised Jesus doesn't address John 10:18.

That is, unless you consider John 10:18 the only valid scripture on this subject.

Of course not. But that verse is true as well as the others and they must be harmonized.

John 10:18 is A valid verse on the subject and so far I have only seen glorydaz and Patrick take that into consideration.

So how do you harmonize John 10:18 with the other verses that you cited?

If that was the only verse on this subject in scripture, then your point would have some validity, but to willfully ignore the many verses that tell us that God raised Jesus from the dead is foolhardy.

I agree. And I haven't willfully ignored any verses. I am in agreement with glorydaz who has done the best job that I have seen so far of harmonizing those verses.

Wouldn't willfully ignoring John 10:18 be considered equally foolhardy?

If a person is willing to meet the two conditions given in Romans 10:9 in order to be saved they must acknowledge, that is believe in their heart that

a. Jesus raised himself

b. God raised Jesus from the dead.

What truth must a person believe in their heart to be saved according to Romans 10:9?

You have created a false dichotomy that the Bible doesn't.

You are saying we have to "either" believe that Jesus raised Himself "or" that God raised Him.

But the Bible doesn't create that dichotomy.

It is both/and. Jesus is pretty clear in John 10:18 that He has the power to raise Himself "and" the Bible is clear that God raised Him.

A person can believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. AND believe Jesus' own words when He says that He has the power to raise Himself and fulfill the requirements of Romans 10:9.

John 10:18 cannot just be swept aside.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

There is not God the Son.

There is a Son of God who is Lord, not God.

The Son of God. Ok.

Sons have the same nature of their Fathers.

So an elk "son" will be an elk.
An elephant "son" will be an elephant.
A human being's son will be a human being.

And God's Son will be...God.

By nature.

That is what Philippians 2 tells us.

You believe church traditional fairy tales made by men who thought the world was flat and you could fall off the edge.

Nope. I believe the Bible. And there is plenty of Scriptural evidence that Jesus is God.

I didn't realize the Apostles believed in a flat earth.

 

[keypurr]

The Son of God. Ok.

Sons have the same nature of their Fathers.

So an elk "son" will be an elk.
An elephant "son" will be an elephant.
A human being's son will be a human being.

And God's Son will be...God.

By nature.

That is what Philippians 2 tells us.



Nope. I believe the Bible. And there is plenty of Scriptural evidence that Jesus is God.

I didn't realize the Apostles believed in a flat earth.

The word God is a title, like President.
God's name is YHWH.
Now tell me, is the son of the President the President?

The son of God is NOT God. Phil 2 tells you that he is a form of god. The spirit son, logos, was given the fullness of the Father, yet he is a creature/creation. The first creation. He is the exact copy of his creator and God created all through him/it.

Heb 1:3, Col 1:15


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[Bard_the_Bowman]

What is the state of the Dead?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiates is a unique book in the Bible in that it asks the question that the rest of the Bible answers. It highlights the problems..and Jesus Christ is the answer.

What is any good under the sun...all is vanity?

And everything is tried....except....love of God and love of neighbor. That isn't addressed.

Keeping that context in mind, the book really doesn't tell us about life after death. And it certainly doesn't tell us anything about life after death for those who love.

When the book is read in context, we can see that it really isn't saying that death means to "cease to exist".

The book draws a false conclusion because it claims that everything is vanity.

But the author didn't try everything. He didn't try Love of God and neighbor.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Son of man is used in more than one way in the Bible.

Sometimes it refers to a mere human being, and sometimes it refers to the vision Daniel had in chapter 7.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.

Yeah...David was dead and buried. But two verses later we see that Jesus isn't: " He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

All will be raised

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurre2ction of damnation.

Amen.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The son of man came down from above, Jesus was born.

Agreed.

The Son of Man (Jesus) came down from above....to take on human flesh and be born.

Do you think the Son of Man and Jesus are two separate people? Matthew 16:13 seems pretty dang clear that Jesus is the Son of Man.

The Son of Man is the logos that came to Jesus as a dove.

Scripture please?

The verses I can find say it is the Holy Spirit that descended upon Jesus.

Not the Son of Man.

And that makes sense since Jesus repeatedly refers to Himself as the Son of Man.

Jesus is the Logos that was made flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1)

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

God gave his express image the fullness of his Power and Wisdom at his anointing. Acts 10:38.

Because of the kenosis that we read about in Philippians Chapter 2.

Jesus willingly emptied Himself of some of His Divine attributes when He took on human flesh to save us.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

John 10:18

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And then there's this

John 17:1

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: AS THOU HAST GIVEN HIM POWER OVER ALL FLESH, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, THAT THEY MIGHT KNOW THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus had the power because the father, who is God gave him the power. And God gave him the commandment to lay down his life, and Jesus obeyed him. So God is also the God of Christ Jesus.

In terms of the kenosis and Jesus emptying Himself, sure.

And there is quite a lot of Biblical evidence that Jesus Himself is God.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

.... but to believe that Jesus Christ is the son of the living God, and believe in the gospel that is from God and preached by his son.

Sons have the same nature as their fathers.

The son of a man is a man....the Son of God...is God.

 

[marhig]

Sons have the same nature as their fathers.

The son of a man is a man....the Son of God...is God.

And once we are born of God, and we walk in the spirit, and become at one with God and Christ, then we should have the same nature also, but that doesn't make us God!

 

[marhig]

In terms of the kenosis and Jesus emptying Himself, sure.

And there is quite a lot of Biblical evidence that Jesus Himself is God.

There is overwhelming evidence that he isn't, there's so many verses that they are everywhere in the new testament. Even Jesus himself clearly says the God is his God. Why don't people believe him when he says this?