Did God Raise Jesus From The Dead Or Did Jesus Christ Raise Himself?

[Bard_the_Bowman]

ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT

YOCHANAN (JOHN)
Chapter 1
1. In the beginning was the Miltha. And that Miltha was with Elohim. And Elohim was that Miltha.
2. This was with Elohim in the beginning.
3. Everything existed through his hands……….

Miltha is the spiritual son of Elohim (God)....

...Elohim is God or a god, it can refer to more than the creator.

Hey keypurr,

I finally went back to reread this post.

If we substitute "spiritual Son" for Miltha and "God" for Elohim it reads:

1. In the beginning was the spiritual Son. And that spiritual Son was with God. And God was that spiritual Son.
2. This was with God in the beginning.

And here's the NKJV: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God."

Same conclusion looks like. The Son was there in the beginning, was with God, and was God.

Peace.

 

[keypurr]

Hey keypurr,

I finally went back to reread this post.

If we substitute "spiritual Son" for Miltha and "God" for Elohim it reads:

1. In the beginning was the spiritual Son. And that spiritual Son was with God. And God was that spiritual Son.
2. This was with God in the beginning.

And here's the NKJV: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God."

Same conclusion looks like. The Son was there in the beginning, was with God, and was God.

Peace.

Throughout the AENT are notes that imply that the spirit son is the right hand of God. Yet in all the English translation they are separate. I have no doubt that the Son only said and did what his God told him to do.

I see only the Father as the most high. Since the words "most high" are used there must be others who are considered as gods. The spirit son is an exact copy of the Father, however a copy is a creation. Yet having the power of his God would make him very special. Higher than all the Angels.
In effect, a created form of God. But not a true God for he told us ONLY his Father is the true God. I will not argue with my Lord friend.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TOL mobile app

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Throughout the AENT are notes that imply that the spirit son is the right hand of God. Yet in all the English translation they are separate.

I am not familiar with the AENT. But I do know that notes that imply are just that. Somebody's interpretation. Not inspired Scripture.

I have no doubt that the Son only said and did what his God told him to do.

Me either. Because His will is in perfect accordance with the Father's will.

I see only the Father as the most high. Since the words "most high" are used there must be others who are considered as gods.

Others who are considered as gods would have to be false gods. We know this because Isaiah says:

"Before Me there was no God formed,Nor shall there be after Me." (Isaiah 43:10)
"‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me." (Isaiah 45:5)

There is only one, True God. If the Son isn't that one, True God....then He is a false god and should be completely ignored.

The spirit son is an exact copy of the Father, however a copy is a creation.

The Son is referred to as an image because He makes visible the invisible God after He took on human flesh. But He existed before stepping into time as pure spirit and an uncreated being....God.

Yet having the power of his God would make him very special. Higher than all the Angels.
In effect, a created form of God.

In a sense, yes, after taking on human form. But He existed as a pure, uncreated spirit before that. That is what John 1 tells us.

But not a true God for he told us ONLY his Father is the true God. I will not argue with my Lord friend.

Well, if He isn't a true God then He is a false god and should be completely ignored. So if He is not the True God, then we can ignore Him when He says ONLY his Father is the True God.

The passages from Isaiah are quite clear that there is only one, True God. So the Son is either True God and should be listened to....or He is a false god and should be ignored.

Also, you are not accurately quoting the verses about the Father being the ONLY True God.

You keep saying that it says that ONLY the Father is the True God. But it doesn't say that.

It says the Father is the only true God. And He is. But that is different than saying what you are asserting. That ONLY the Father is the True God.

You may not be arguing with the Lord, but you are rearranging words in the text to change the meaning.

Since John the Apostle tells us that Jesus made Himself equal to God, and there is only one, True, God...

...our trilemma of Jesus being Lord, Lunatic, or Liar remains.

Peace.

 

[keypurr]

I am not familiar with the AENT. But I do know that notes that imply are just that. Somebody's interpretation. Not inspired Scripture.

Are not all translations like that?

Me either. Because His will is in perfect accordance with the Father's will.

Yep, he has a God over him.

Others who are considered as gods would have to be false gods. We know this because Isaiah says:

"Before Me there was no God formed,Nor shall there be after Me." (Isaiah 43:10)
"‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me." (Isaiah 45:5)

There is only one, True God. If the Son isn't that one, True God....then He is a false god and should be completely ignored.

There is only one true God but if he is the most high, who re the others considered as gods?
Moses was call god, so were kings.

The Son is referred to as an image because He makes visible the invisible God after He took on human flesh. But He existed before stepping into time as pure spirit and an uncreated being....God.

Not son, the true Son is a spirit like his Father. He is the exact image of his creator. Not a man. He is the firstborn of all creatures.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

In a sense, yes, after taking on human form. But He existed as a pure, uncreated spirit before that. That is what John 1 tells us.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: in other words, he is a created godlike creature. Every living thing except the Father is a creature.

He was given the fullness of the Father,

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Well, if He isn't a true God then He is a false god and should be completely ignored. So if He is not the True God, then we can ignore Him when He says ONLY his Father is the True God.

The passages from Isaiah are quite clear that there is only one, True God. So the Son is either True God and should be listened to....or He is a false god and should be ignored.

I see him as "a" god.,

Also, you are not accurately quoting the verses about the Father being the ONLY True God.

You keep saying that it says that ONLY the Father is the True God. But it doesn't say that.

It says the Father is the only true God. And He is. But that is different than saying what you are asserting. That ONLY the Father is the True God.

You may not be arguing with the Lord, but you are rearranging words in the text to change the meaning.

Since John the Apostle tells us that Jesus made Himself equal to God, and there is only one, True, God...

...our trilemma of Jesus being Lord, Lunatic, or Liar remains.

Peace.

John 17:3

(ASV) And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

(BBE) And this is eternal life: to have knowledge of you, the only true God, and of him whom you have sent, even Jesus Christ.

(Bishops) This is lyfe eternall, that they myght knowe thee, the only true God, & Iesus Christe whom thou hast sent.

(CEV) Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent.

(DRB) Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(ESV) And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

(Geneva) And this is life eternall, that they knowe thee to be the onely very God, and whom thou hast sent, Iesus Christ.

(GNB) And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

(GW) This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

(ISV) And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent-Jesus Christ.

(KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(NAS77) "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.

(NASB) "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

(NET.) Now this is eternal life — that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

(NIrV) "And what is eternal life? It is knowing you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

(NIV) Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

(NKJV) And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

(NRSV) And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

(NRSVA) And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

(TNIV) Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

(YLT) and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;

Jesus Christ tells you that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.

Who do you wish to follow?

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Are not all translations like that?

I thought you said something like "most of the notes in the AENT say this....". My point was that there is no reason to believe those notes are accurate and true. Certainly no more accurate or true than other notes that don't say that.

Yep, he has a God over him.

He is God.

There is only one true God but if he is the most high, who re the others considered as gods?
Moses was call god, so were kings.

Do you think Moses and kings were gods?

There is only one true God

I see him as "a" god.,

So to boil this down a bit...if you admit that there is only one true God...but then also see the Son as "a" god...well, what exactly does that mean?

Doesn't that mean the the Son is either the one, True God....or He is a false god?

Well, which is it?

John 17:3

(ASV) And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

(BBE) And this is eternal life: to have knowledge of you, the only true God, and of him whom you have sent, even Jesus Christ.

(Bishops) This is lyfe eternall, that they myght knowe thee, the only true God, & Iesus Christe whom thou hast sent.

(CEV) Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent.

(DRB) Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(ESV) And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

(Geneva) And this is life eternall, that they knowe thee to be the onely very God, and whom thou hast sent, Iesus Christ.

(GNB) And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

(GW) This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

(ISV) And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent-Jesus Christ.

(KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(NAS77) "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.

(NASB) "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

(NET.) Now this is eternal life — that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

(NIrV) "And what is eternal life? It is knowing you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

(NIV) Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

(NKJV) And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

(NRSV) And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

(NRSVA) And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

(TNIV) Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

(YLT) and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;

Jesus Christ tells you that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.

Who do you wish to follow?

[/QUOTE]

First of all, all of those translations you quoted above show one thing clearly. Jesus doesn't say what you said He did in an earlier post #222:

In effect, a created form of God. But not a true God for he told us ONLY his Father is the true God. I will not argue with my Lord friend.

Jesus simply does not say that ONLY the Father is God. That is a misreading of the text.

Jesus does say that the Father is the One, True God...but He doesn't say ONLY the Father is the One, True God.

You are reading that word ONlY into the text and into a different place in the text that changes the meaning.

Basically, that is changing words to make the Bible say what you want it to say.

I want to follow the One, True, God and I truly believe that there is only One, True God.

And if Jesus Christ isn't that One, True, God...but made Himself equal to that One, True God (John 5:18)...then Jesus Christ is a false god (or a lunatic, or a liar) and we should not listen to Him.

Our trilemma is still here.

Let's boil it down to one question:

Who is this Jesus who claimed to be equal with God?

Peace.

 

[keypurr]

I thought you said something like "most of the notes in the AENT say this....". My point was that there is no reason to believe those notes are accurate and true. Certainly no more accurate or true than other notes that don't say that.

That's why I said I try to prove all things.
But these notes in the AENT seem better than most.

He is God.

Questionable, I see him as a form of god, not God.

Do you think Moses and kings were gods?

I believe in only the Father as God

So to boil this down a bit...if you admit that there is only one true God...but then also see the Son as "a" god...well, what exactly does that mean?

Doesn't that mean the the Son is either the one, True God....or He is a false god?

Well, which is it?

The logos (spirit son) is a created form of God, "a god"
He a true form of god, given the power of his God by his God. But he is still a creation.

First of all, all of those translations you quoted above show one thing clearly. Jesus doesn't say what you said He did in an earlier post #222:

The point being.....? The Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD.

Jesus simply does not say that ONLY the Father is God. That is a misreading of the text.

OH yes it does.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus does say that the Father is the One, True God...but He doesn't say ONLY the Father is the One, True God.

You are reading that word ONlY into the text and into a different place in the text that changes the meaning.

Basically, that is changing words to make the Bible say what you want it to say.

I want to follow the One, True, God and I truly believe that there is only One, True God.

Here they are again, look for the word ONLY in them.
John 17:3

(ASV) And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

(BBE) And this is eternal life: to have knowledge of you, the only true God, and of him whom you have sent, even Jesus Christ.

(Bishops) This is lyfe eternall, that they myght knowe thee, the only true God, & Iesus Christe whom thou hast sent.

(CEV) Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent.

(DRB) Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(ESV) And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

(Geneva) And this is life eternall, that they knowe thee to be the onely very God, and whom thou hast sent, Iesus Christ.

(GNB) And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

(GW) This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

(ISV) And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent-Jesus Christ.

I GOT MORE if you want them.

And if Jesus Christ isn't that One, True, God...but made Himself equal to that One, True God (John 5:18)...then Jesus Christ is a false god (or a lunatic, or a liar) and we should not listen to Him.

Jesus Speaking:
John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."
Revelation 3:2 - "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."
Paul:
Ephesians 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Ephesians 1:17 - "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."
2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Corinthians 11:31 - "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ knows, He who is blessed forever, that I do not lie."
Romans 15:6 - "that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Peter:
1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Revelation 1:6 - "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

Jesus Christ is the SON of GOD. not God. There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, the Father.
Jesus Christ said it and I trust him over the world.

Our trilemma is still here.

Let's boil it down to one question:

Who is this Jesus who claimed to be equal with God?

Peace.

Jesus Christ is the firstborn of all creatures/creation. He is an exact copy of his creator Father. The Father was pleased that the son contained his fullness. In other words, the Son is a created form of God.

God created all things through this spirit son. The spirit son (logos) was sent by the Father to dwell in the body he provided, that would be Jesus. The spirit son and the flesh son united, in other words, the logos became flesh. The logos spoke and acted through Jesus.

That's what I see in the Bible.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

That's why I said I try to prove all things.
But these notes in the AENT seem better than most.

Questionable, I see him as a form of god, not God.

John 1 doesn't say "form of god". It says "the Word was God". That is not questionable. That is very direct.

How do you harmonize your idea that He is a "form of god", with John 1?

I believe in only the Father as God

I understand that is what you believe.

Do you believe the Word is the Father? Because John 1 says "the Word was God".

So if ONLY the Father is God, and the Word is God...then the Father must be the Word. But that type of thinking doesn't make sense of John 1.

So the Word is a separate being that is God. And the Father is God. And we are 2/3 of the way to the Trinity.

The logos (spirit son) is a created form of God, "a god"
He a true form of god, given the power of his God by his God. But he is still "a creation."

Nope. John 1 says "the Word was God". Not a "created form of God", not "a god", and not a creation. All of those ideas have to be read into the text.

The text just says that "the Word was God."

The point being.....? The Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD.

Amen! That is true. The Father is the only true God. I think I already told you that I agree with that.

And that does not negate the Doctrine of the Trinity because:

The Son is the only true God, and the Holy Spirit is the only true God. Those statements do not contradict John 17:3.

However, saying that "the Father is the only true God" is DIFFERENT than saying "ONLY the Father is the true God." The Bible nowhere makes that second claim. You do that by moving where you put the word ONLY.

OH yes it does.

Nope. You have to move where the word only is. And by doing that, your claim contradicts what is actually written in that verse and also contradicts John 1:1.

Here they are again, look for the word ONLY in them.
John 17:3

(ASV) And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

How about if we don't just look for the word "only" but how and where it is used? And leave it there.

It says the Father is the only true God. I've shown above how that idea is compatible with the Doctrine of the Trinity. It does not say ONLY the Father is true God and it can't because that would contradict John 1:1 which says that the Word was with God and the Word was God.

I GOT MORE if you want them.

Well, quoting one verse over and over again in a variety of translations is unnecessary to try to make your point. It may look like a lot of evidence but it is really only one verse.

If you've got more VERSES we could look at sure. As a matter of fact I think we should because John 17:3 is perfectly compatible with the Doctrine of the Trinity but causes problems for the idea that God isn't a Trinity.

What other verses would help, do you think?

Jesus Speaking:
John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."
Revelation 3:2 - "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."
Paul:
Ephesians 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Ephesians 1:17 - "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."
2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Corinthians 11:31 - "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ knows, He who is blessed forever, that I do not lie."
Romans 15:6 - "that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Peter:
1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Revelation 1:6 - "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

The above doesn't answer the question I asked.

According to St. John, Jesus made Himself equal to God. Was He, or was He lying about that or was He crazy?

Jesus Christ is the SON of GOD. not God.

Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. The Word is God. So Jesus is God.

There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, the Father.

And the Word is God. (John 1:1) So the either the Word is the Father, or there is more than one person in the one true God and we are 2/3 of the way to the Trinity again.

Jesus Christ said it and I trust him over the world.

Jesus Christ said the Father is the only true God. He said it and I believe it, too.

He did not say that ONLY the Father is the true God. He didn't say that. You did.

Jesus Christ is the firstborn of all creatures/creation.

Amen. He has preeminence over all creation.

He is an exact copy of his creator Father. The Father was pleased that the son contained his fullness.

Amen. So He has the same nature as the Father, has the fullness of the Father....and so He is God.

In other words, the Son is a created form of God.

I am sorry, but I don't think I've run across the phrase "created form of God" anywhere in the Bible. God, by definition, is uncreated.

The Word (John 1:1) is uncreated....and so is God.

God created all things through this spirit son.

Can you explain to me how God created the spirit son THROUGH the spirit son?

The spirit son (logos) was sent by the Father to dwell in the body he provided, that would be Jesus. The spirit son and the flesh son united, in other words, the logos became flesh. The logos spoke and acted through Jesus.

Nope. Jesus was not a human being who became possessed by the divine. The Bible nowhere says (that I know of) that the spirit son and the flesh son are separate beings who united.

The Bible says that "the Word was God" (John 1:1), "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14), Jesus is the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us.

That's what I see in the Bible.

I understand that. But it seems to me that you are working pretty hard to change what portions of the text actually say.

Two questions I would like you to answer directly please:

1. If ONLY the Father is God, and John 1:1 says the "Word was God"...do you believe that the Father is the Word?

2. According to St. John Jesus made "Himself equal to God." Was He?

Peace.

 

[George Affleck]

Did God Raise Jesus From The Dead Or Did Jesus Christ Raise Himself?

John 10:18 KJV -

Yes

 

[patrick jane]

Yes

good answer George

 

[keypurr]

John 1 doesn't say "form of god". It says "the Word was God". That is not questionable. That is very direct.

Sorry I took so long to get back to you but I had some issues to deal with.

You should not cling to any one verse friend, Phill 2 tell you that he is a form of God. You have to seek deep into this before you will understand it.

How do you harmonize your idea that He is a "form of god", with John 1?

The content of the over all scriptures led me to this.

I understand that is what you believe.

Do you believe the Word is the Father? Because John 1 says "the Word was God".

The word Elohim is used in a few ways, I admit I need more study on it, but "a" god us not unreasonable TO CONSIDER.

So if ONLY the Father is God, and the Word is God...then the Father must be the Word. But that type of thinking doesn't make sense of John 1.

Is the word of Bard, Bard?

So the Word is a separate being that is God. And the Father is God. And we are 2/3 of the way to the Trinity.

The logos is more than the word of God, the logos is his spirit son

Nope. John 1 says "the Word was God". Not a "created form of God", not "a god", and not a creation. All of those ideas have to be read into the text.

The text just says that "the Word was God."

Translations sometime fail to express the true words neede3d to tell the story. The Greek fails in many verses from what I have read over the years.

Amen! That is true. The Father is the only true God. I think I already told you that I agree with that.

And that does not negate the Doctrine of the Trinity because:

YES IT DOES BARD, The words of Jesus are truth.

The Son is the only true God, and the Holy Spirit is the only true God. Those statements do not contradict John 17:3.

They certainly do go against the commandments of the most high.

However, saying that "the Father is the only true God" is DIFFERENT than saying "ONLY the Father is the true God." The Bible nowhere makes that second claim. You do that by moving where you put the word ONLY.

How so? There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.

Nope. You have to move where the word only is. And by doing that, your claim contradicts what is actually written in that verse and also contradicts John 1:1.

Your hedging friend. You have a hard time seeing the words of the Master.

How about if we don't just look for the word "only" but how and where it is used? And leave it there.

That would be like playing being an editor with God's word.

It says the Father is the only true God. I've shown above how that idea is compatible with the Doctrine of the Trinity. It does not say ONLY the Father is true God and it can't because that would contradict John 1:1 which says that the Word was with God and the Word was God.

John 17:3 destroys the Trinity

Well, quoting one verse over and over again in a variety of translations is unnecessary to try to make your point. It may look like a lot of evidence but it is really only one verse.

Agree that we have to look at the total words.

If you've got more VERSES we could look at sure. As a matter of fact I think we should because John 17:3 is perfectly compatible with the Doctrine of the Trinity but causes problems for the idea that God isn't a Trinity.

No Way is it compatible with the Trinity.

What other verses would help, do you think?

"Yet for us there is one God, the Father" (Corinthians 8:6).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).

Isaiah 45:5 – "I am the LORD (YHWH) and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

1 Cor. 8:6 – "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord Jesus Christ."

According to St. John, Jesus made Himself equal to God. Was He, or was He lying about that or was He crazy?

The spirit son was give the full power of his father yet his Father is greater.

Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. The Word is God. So Jesus is God.

God sent "a" god to bring us his words. so in way you could consider saying that.

And the Word is God. (John 1:1) So the either the Word is the Father, or there is more than one person in the one true God and we are 2/3 of the way to the Trinity again.

Leave your mind open till you study the entire words you have been given.



Jesus Christ said the Father is the only true God. He said it and I believe it, too.

He did not say that ONLY the Father is the true God. He didn't say that. You did.

Then all the translations are wrong.

Amen. He has preeminence over all creation. True He is also the FIRST of all creation for ALL things were made through him.

Amen. So He has the same nature as the Father, has the fullness of the Father....and so He is God.

No, he is a creation who the Father gave power to, a form of God. Not God.

I am sorry, but I don't think I've run across the phrase "created form of God" anywhere in the Bible. God, by definition, is uncreated.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Notice the underlined words.

You will not find the words created form of God but neither will you find the word Trinity.

The Word (John 1:1) is uncreated....and so is God.

Can't change the words for you Bard

Can you explain to me how God created the spirit son THROUGH the spirit son?

The Spirit son is the express image son that God created first. The world was not created by a man named Jesus.

Nope. Jesus was not a human being who became possessed by the divine. The Bible nowhere says (that I know of) that the spirit son and the flesh son are separate beings who united.

Heb 10:5 disagrees with you, so does Phill 2, Col 1 and Heb 1.

The Bible says that "the Word was God" (John 1:1), "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14), Jesus is the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us.

The word (logos) became flesh when Jesus was anointed with it at his baptism. Acts 10:38

I understand that. But it seems to me that you are working pretty hard to change what portions of the text actually say.

But not as hard as you are digesting the exact words of your Lord.

Two questions I would like you to answer directly please:

1. If ONLY the Father is God, and John 1:1 says the "Word was God"...do you believe that the Father is the Word?

2. According to St. John Jesus made "Himself equal to God." Was He?

Peace.

Answered above friend.

Peace Bard I am enjoying our conversation.

 

[patrick jane]

.



Is the word of Bard, Bard?

That's pretty sad, comparing Bard's word to God's

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Hey keypurr,

Probably a good stopping point on this for now, in my opinion.

We obviously disagree. I disagree with much of what you said in your last post and you will disagree with much of my response to it.

Perhaps we will return to the topic again sometime. Or perhaps we'll bump into each other again on another thread.

I am not really a regular here. I do not have the time to get on a computer every single day and converse like some people do. I just have too many other things going on. (I think I'll be happy if I ever make it to retirement! )

But I thank you for the conversation, truly.

I think we have shown that two people can disagree and still remain friends. And I think our conversation has shown that biblical interpretation is an issue that obviously causes differences of belief. (Ha! No wonder there are thousands of different Christian denominations....)

God Bless you, keypurr.

 

[Angel4Truth]

John 10:18 KJV -

Both, since Jesus is God

 

[keypurr]

That's pretty sad, comparing Bard's word to God's

ITS PRETTY SAD THAT YOU THINK THAT.

I was trying to show him the difference between God the most high and the words he shares. Christ was sent to bring the light of his Father's words to us.

 

[keypurr]

Hey keypurr,

Probably a good stopping point on this for now, in my opinion.

We obviously disagree. I disagree with much of what you said in your last post and you will disagree with much of my response to it.

Perhaps we will return to the topic again sometime. Or perhaps we'll bump into each other again on another thread.

I am not really a regular here. I do not have the time to get on a computer every single day and converse like some people do. I just have too many other things going on. (I think I'll be happy if I ever make it to retirement! )

But I thank you for the conversation, truly.

I think we have shown that two people can disagree and still remain friends. And I think our conversation has shown that biblical interpretation is an issue that obviously causes differences of belief. (Ha! No wonder there are thousands of different Christian denominations....)

God Bless you, keypurr.

We do differ friend and our post have been a pleasure for me, God be with you til we meet again.

 

[keypurr]

Yes

Please show me the verse that says he raised himself.

 

[patrick jane]

Please show me the verse that says he raised himself.

John 10:18 KJV -

 

[keypurr]

Both, since Jesus is God

That verse does not prove your point Angel.