Did God Raise Jesus From The Dead Or Did Jesus Christ Raise Himself?

[Bard_the_Bowman]

KJV
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Philippians 2:7

Agreed. But that doesn't say He left part of Himself behind when He took on human flesh.

He was of a different form (Spirit God), when He took on the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. (something He was not by nature).

So Jesus was not by nature...a man. He was pure Spirit...the Son of God. Then He took on human flesh and became something He was not. A human being.

Through His Incarnation, we have a unique person in all of history. Fully divinity, who willingly took on full humanity.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Consider what the word was before it became flesh.


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Pure spirit, right?

 

[keypurr]

Neither one of those passages say that the Son is a creature or created being. Nowhere does the Bible say that the Son is a created being. And to say that He is makes nonsense of John 1 where we are told that nothing was made without Him.

Here it is in other translations:

Colossians 1:15

(ASV) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
(Bishops) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first borne of all creatures.
(DRB) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(Geneva) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first begotten of euery creature.
(GNB) Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.
(KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Note the words IMAGE and CREATURE in just this verse.
Name any image that is not a creation if you can.

So He cannot have been made.

Wrong, he is a creature

"Firstborn" is a title of preeminence.

Agree, but FIRSTBORN is used more as first to be born.

Psalm 89:27 calls David the "firstborn" even though we know that he was the youngest in his family. That is a title that shows his preeminence.

In Jeremiah 31:9, Ephraim is called the "firstborn" even though Manassah was the "first one to be born". The term used for Ephraim again shows preeminence. It doesn't literally mean "the first to be born".

Likewise, Jesus also is referred to with the title of "firstborn". But that doesn't mean He was created or the "first to be born", either. It is a title used to show His preeminence and authority over all things.

There is no scripture verse that I know of that says that the Son was created.

I just gave you one. Also Heb 1:3 shows he is an IMAGE.

The Son has preeminence over all of creation. That is what "firstborn" means.

The Son is the FIRST of creation for ALL was created through him/it

It is illogical to say that God created all through Him if He is a created being.

It makes sense to say that God created all through Him if He is not a created being.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

God gave his spirit son the POWER to create everything.

The kenosis in Phillipians 2 explains that. Jesus is the Logos who humbled Himself to take on flesh.
Jesus, the Logos, fully humbled Himself and became fully human. Including growing in wisdom as a man.

Jesus was NOT the logos, the spirit son is. The logos went into Jesus, NOTE:

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Well, I don't have a problem with that. It is just that being the Messiah or Anointed One is just a title, it isn't another person. Jesus is the Messiah. But He is the same person before that designation as well as after it.

Jesus is the BODY prepared for the logos (spirit Son)

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Quick question: Why do you think the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus to be killed?

Because it destroyed their understanding of who God is.
And they were afraid of the Romans

Peace my friend

 

[Jacob]

John 10:18 KJV -

Shalom.

God raised Jesus, Yeshua, from the dead. Your verse is also true.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Bard, the Son (not Jesus?who was at the creation is a spirit being exactly like his Father. Heb 1:3.

Then the Son is God. Exactly like His Father. I agree.

He was the first to be born. Col 1:15. He is a creature Col 1:15.

I disagree. Firstborn doesn't necessarily mean "the first to be born". You are limiting the definition to just that.

No verse in Scripture says that that Son was created or that He is a creature. I think that you are reaching that conclusion because you are limiting the term "firstborn" to mean "something created". But the term has other meanings that can be used and doesn't result in contradictions.

God created all things through his spirit Son so he has to be firstborn of all creation.

No. Because that would make Him a part of creation which contradicts John 1.

The Father created all things through His Son because The Son was always there with the Father, as an uncreated being....God.

That's why the Father could create all things through His Son.

It doesn't require that the Son be created.

Jesus is a man BORN to Mary. He was not at the creation.

Yes He was. As pure Spirit. The Son of the Father.

There is a difference between the flesh son and the spirit son.

Yes. The Son as pure Spirit has always been with God. Until He was incarnated and took on flesh. But it is not two different people. It is one person who did that. Jesus.

The Spirit so did dwell in Jesus and spoke through him. It was after God joined the two that they became one.

God joined the two? I don't think I've read that anywhere. Jesus is a person. Not the conjoining of two people.

Jesus became the Christ when he was anointed with the Christ (spirit son).

Ok. But He didn't become a different person or become inhabited by a different person. "Christ" means "Messiah" or "anointed one" as we have already agreed.

Demons are spirits, Jesus cast a legion of them out of a man and sent them into the swine.

If The son is not a spirit being why would he need a body prepared for him? This is how the logos (spirit son) became flesh.

Fine. Then the Spirit Son is Jesus until He took on flesh. Then He had a physical body. I agree.

Keep in mind that the Father was pleased that his spirit son had his fullness. The logos is a created Godlike creature.

The Logos is a created Godlike creature? I disagree and the Bible nowhere states that. I understand that that is what you believe based on your interpretation of the Bible. But I don't agree that that interpretation is correct.

All the power to created the Universe yet still a creation. That is why Jesus Christ tells you that his Father is greater than All, for only his Father is the true God.

The Bible nowhere says the Logos is a creation.

Let me ask you this.

The Bible tells us that the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus killed because He made Himself equal to God.

John 5:18: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

John 19:7: "The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God."

If Jesus was not equal to God (which means being God Himself), then:

was He crazy for making such ridiculous claims or

was He a liar and was just messing with everybody for some reason?

Peace.

 

[Bollweevil]

It seems if there are 2 entities, Father & Son, then the Father (God) must have raised Jesus because Jesus was physically dead and unable to.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Here it is in other translations:

Colossians 1:15

(ASV) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
(Bishops) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first borne of all creatures.
(DRB) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(Geneva) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first begotten of euery creature.
(GNB) Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.
(KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Note the words IMAGE and CREATURE in just this verse.

Note that the words do not say that He is a creature. As a matter of fact, one of the translations you chose (GNB) says He is "superior to all created things".

Can He be superior to Himself then? If He is a created thing then He has to be superior to Himself and we get into illogical nonsense again.

That verse only makes sense if He is not a created thing.

Name any image that is not a creation if you can.

The Only Begotten Son of God was not created. He became the visible image of the invisible God when He took on flesh.

Wrong, he is a creature

Nope. John 1 says that "..without Him nothing was made that was made...".

Logically, then, He cannot have been made because He cannot have been there to make Himself. And He could not have been there for the Father to create Himself through Himself.

Can you explain how He could be made if "without Him nothing was made that was made?" That is a logical impossibility.

The only way I can think of is to say that the Father created Him first and then created everything else through Him.

And that is fine....but that is not what the Bible says. That is a view that has to be imposed upon the Bible.

Agree, but FIRSTBORN is used more as first to be born.

But determining the usage of a word by how it is used more would be a bad idea, dontcha think? I think it would be better practice to look at the context of how it is used and what is being stated, as well as avoiding contradictions with other passages.

I just gave you one. Also Heb 1:3 shows he is an IMAGE.

He physically and visibly shows us God. In that sense He is an image. And He is an uncreated being so He is God.

I think a big part of our disagreement may lie in the fact that I see the only begotten Son of God as an uncreated being who willingly decided to take on human flesh and came to Earth as Jesus Christ.

I wonder if you don't see two separate beings. The Son of God is one being and Jesus is another being.

The Son is the FIRST of creation for ALL was created through him/it

Not without making nonsense out of John 1. If the Son is the first creation how could He have been made through Himself?

That is a logical impossibility and, at least for me, that is a big part of why the idea of the Son being a created being just doesn't work.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

God gave his spirit son the POWER to create everything.



Jesus was NOT the logos, the spirit son is. The logos went into Jesus, NOTE:

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

It feels like we are spinning our wheels. Perhaps I need a break from this topic.

Jesus is the BODY prepared for the logos (spirit Son)

I disagree. Jesus is a person. He is God in the flesh. The Word made flesh among us. Jesus isn't just a body as though He is just a container to house a different person or something.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Perhaps I'll take a break and return to this subject at another time.

Because it destroyed their understanding of who God is.
And they were afraid of the Romans

That is not what Scripture says. Scripture says they wanted Him killed because He made Himself equal to God.
It says that quite plainly in John 5:18.

Based on that...the questions for all of us are:

Was He God or wasn't He?

If He wasn't God...was He lying or was He crazy? I don't know what other options there are for somebody who claims to be equal to God but really isn't.

If He was God...well, then He was God.

Peace my friend

Peace to you as well.

 

[keypurr]

Then the Son is God. Exactly like His Father. I agree.

Yes except the Father is God and the son is a creation for he is the express IMAGE of God.

I disagree. Firstborn doesn't necessarily mean "the first to be born". You are limiting the definition to just that.

God was alone until he created his express IMAGE. A subject has to exist BEFORE an IMAGE of that subject is created. The Son was the first to be born of all creatures, I showed you that in Col 1;15. God created ALL through this spirit. Heb 1.

No verse in Scripture says that that Son was created or that He is a creature. I think that you are reaching that conclusion because you are limiting the term "firstborn" to mean "something created". But the term has other meanings that can be used and doesn't result in contradictions.

Yes it does, I have given some of them to you.

No. Because that would make Him a part of creation which contradicts John 1.
The spiritFather created all things through His Son because The Son was always there with the Father, as an uncreated being....God. Son
The

That's why the Father could create all things through His Son.

I see that you do not realize that an IMAGE is a copy of something.

It doesn't require that the Son be created.

If the Son is an IMAGE he did not exist before the Father which it is the IMAGE of.

Yes He was. As pure Spirit. The Son of the Father.

Amen we agree on something.

Yes. The Son as pure Spirit has always been with God. Until He was incarnated and took on flesh. But it is not two different people. It is one person who did that. Jesus.

He was not always with his God, God was ALONE until he created his exact IMAGE.

God joined the two? I don't think I've read that anywhere. Jesus is a person. Not the conjoining of two people.

Part right, Jesus the human was conjoined by the express IMAGE spirit.

Ok. But He didn't become a different person or become inhabited by a different person. "Christ" means "Messiah" or "anointed one" as we have already agreed.

Yes he did, what was he doing before he was anointed with this spirit of power?

Demons are spirits, Jesus cast a legion of them out of a man and sent them into the swine.

Yep, proof that more than one spirit can dwell in a man.

Fine. Then the Spirit Son is Jesus until He took on flesh. Then He had a physical body. I agree.

The spirit Son went into Jesus, remember the dove?

The Logos is a created Godlike creature? I disagree and the Bible nowhere states that. I understand that that is what you believe based on your interpretation of the Bible. But I don't agree that that interpretation is correct.

We disagree then, but I love you as a brother anyway.

The Bible nowhere says the Logos is a creation.

I think Heb 1 and Col 1 are reason FOR YOU TO DIG DEEPER and forget the traditions that are keeping you from truth.

Let me ask you this.

The Bible tells us that the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus killed because He made Himself equal to God.

John 5:18: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

John 19:7: "The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God."

If Jesus was not equal to God (which means being God Himself), then:

was He crazy for making such ridiculous claims or

was He a liar and was just messing with everybody for some reason?

Peace.

The Jew thought that he was saying he was equal to God, but Jesus was not. He said he came to do the will of his Father. They misunderstood him.

Peace Bard

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Yes except the Father is God and the son is a creation for he is the express IMAGE of God.



God was alone until he created his express IMAGE. A subject has to exist BEFORE an IMAGE of that subject is created. The Son was the first to be born of all creatures, I showed you that in Col 1;15. God created ALL through this spirit. Heb 1.


Yes it does, I have given some of them to you.



I see that you do not realize that an IMAGE is a copy of something.



If the Son is an IMAGE he did not exist before the Father which it is the IMAGE of.



Amen we agree on something.




He was not always with his God, God was ALONE until he created his exact IMAGE.



Part right, Jesus the human was conjoined by the express IMAGE spirit.



Yes he did, what was he doing before he was anointed with this spirit of power?



Yep, proof that more than one spirit can dwell in a man.



The spirit Son went into Jesus, remember the dove?



We disagree then, but I love you as a brother anyway.


I think Heb 1 and Col 1 are reason FOR YOU TO DIG DEEPER and forget the traditions that are keeping you from truth.



The Jew thought that he was saying he was equal to God, but Jesus was not. He said he came to do the will of his Father. They misunderstood him.

Peace Bard

I'd like to clear up a couple of points if you could help me please.

1. Can you explain to me how John 1:3 can tell us that "..without Him nothing was made that was made..." and how the Son could then have been made....without Him?

2. You say the Jews misunderstood what Jesus was saying. But John 5:18 is not the Jews speaking. Those are the words of St. John the Apostle who is writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. According to them, Jesus made "Himself equal to God".

So we cannot so easily dismiss Jesus' claims to be equal to God by saying the Jews misunderstood Him.

Because we know St. John and the Holy Spirit did not misunderstand Him and they reached the same conclusion.

So our Trilemma remains:

Was He Lord, Lunatic, or Liar?

Peace.

 

[Truster]

Then the Son is God. Exactly like His Father. I agree.



I disagree. Firstborn doesn't necessarily mean "the first to be born". You are limiting the definition to just that.

No verse in Scripture says that that Son was created or that He is a creature. I think that you are reaching that conclusion because you are limiting the term "firstborn" to mean "something created". But the term has other meanings that can be used and doesn't result in contradictions.



No. Because that would make Him a part of creation which contradicts John 1.

The Father created all things through His Son because The Son was always there with the Father, as an uncreated being....God.

That's why the Father could create all things through His Son.

It doesn't require that the Son be created.



Yes He was. As pure Spirit. The Son of the Father.



Yes. The Son as pure Spirit has always been with God. Until He was incarnated and took on flesh. But it is not two different people. It is one person who did that. Jesus.



God joined the two? I don't think I've read that anywhere. Jesus is a person. Not the conjoining of two people.



Ok. But He didn't become a different person or become inhabited by a different person. "Christ" means "Messiah" or "anointed one" as we have already agreed.

Demons are spirits, Jesus cast a legion of them out of a man and sent them into the swine.



Fine. Then the Spirit Son is Jesus until He took on flesh. Then He had a physical body. I agree.



The Logos is a created Godlike creature? I disagree and the Bible nowhere states that. I understand that that is what you believe based on your interpretation of the Bible. But I don't agree that that interpretation is correct.



The Bible nowhere says the Logos is a creation.

Let me ask you this.

The Bible tells us that the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus killed because He made Himself equal to God.

John 5:18: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

John 19:7: "The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God."

If Jesus was not equal to God (which means being God Himself), then:

was He crazy for making such ridiculous claims or

was He a liar and was just messing with everybody for some reason?

Peace.

You are attempting to judge eternal matters from the perspective of time. Eternity means eternal. What ever existed in eternity or now dwells in eternity is eternal. Eternity is not subject to time. For instance there can be no broken pencils in eternity, because if there were, it would mean that the broken pencil, was at some time whole. The is no question as to the eternal existence of the Eternal Father, the Eternal Son nor the Eternal Spirit.

 

[keypurr]

I'd like to clear up a couple of points if you could help me please.

1. Can you explain to me how John 1:3 can tell us that "..without Him nothing was made that was made..." and how the Son could then have been made....without Him?

2. You say the Jews misunderstood what Jesus was saying. But John 5:18 is not the Jews speaking. Those are the words of St. John the Apostle who is writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. According to them, Jesus made "Himself equal to God".

So we cannot so easily dismiss Jesus' claims to be equal to God by saying the Jews misunderstood Him.

Because we know St. John and the Holy Spirit did not misunderstand Him and they reached the same conclusion.

So our Trilemma remains:

Was He Lord, Lunatic, or Liar?

Peace.

John 1:3 agrees with Heb 1:3, and Col 1:15, The the spirit Son is God's first creation, for God created ALL through it. The spirit Son laid the foundation for the Universe, it is a created form of God. He was given the fullness of the Father, Col 1, Phil 2. In effect he is "a god", but not God himself.

John 5:18 notice WHO is saying that he is equal too his Father. It is not Jesus Christ. It is the Jews. Christ came to glorify his God.

John never says that Jesus is God. Neither did Jesus. It is in John 17:3 where Jesus Christ told us that only the Father is the true God.

God's first creation was his express image spiritual son.

God created All through this image son. This son is not Jesus, the Universe was not created by a man. Jesus is the body God prepared for his true son as told in Heb 10:38. The spirit son became flesh in the body prepared for it. Think about that.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[patrick jane]

John 1:3 agrees with Heb 1:3, and Col 1:15, The the spirit Son is God's first creation, for God created ALL through it. The spirit Son laid the foundation for the Universe, it is a created form of God. He was given the fullness of the Father, Col 1, Phil 2. In effect he is "a god", but not God himself.

John 5:18 notice WHO is saying that he is equal too his Father. It is not Jesus Christ. It is the Jews. Christ came to glorify his God.

John never says that Jesus is God. Neither did Jesus. It is in John 17:3 where Jesus Christ told us that only the Father is the true God.

God's first creation was his express image spiritual son.

God created All through this image son. This son is not Jesus, the Universe was not created by a man. Jesus is the body God prepared for his true son as told in Heb 10:38. The spirit son became flesh in the body prepared for it. Think about that.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

Philippians 2:6 KJV -

 

[keypurr]

You are attempting to judge eternal matters from the perspective of time. Eternity means eternal. What ever existed in eternity or now dwells in eternity is eternal. Eternity is not subject to time. For instance there can be no broken pencils in eternity, because if there were, it would mean that the broken pencil, was at some time whole. The is no question as to the eternal existence of the Eternal Father, the Eternal Son nor the Eternal Spirit.

The son is a creation and was not eternal past for he is an image.
Only the Father is eternal from the beginning. Eternity Is all about time friend.


Sent from my iPad using TOL

 

[Truster]

The son is a creation and was not eternal past for he is an image.
Only the Father is eternal from the beginning. Eternity Is all about time friend.


Sent from my iPad using TOL

The true name of the Son is Yah Shua. Which means Eternal Saviour.

 

[keypurr]

The true name of the Son is Yah Shua. Which means Eternal Saviour.

He is the eternal saviour, he will never die or be replaced.
But he is a creation, a creature not God. He is a created form of God as told in Phill 2.


Sent from my iPad using TOL

 

[Truster]

He is the eternal saviour, he will never die or be replaced.
But he is a creation, a creature not God. He is a created form of God as told in Phill 2.


Sent from my iPad using TOL

Blind guide.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

John 1:3 agrees with Heb 1:3, and Col 1:15, The the spirit Son is God's first creation, for God created ALL through it.

keypurr, that is illogical. And it doesn't answer my question.

How could God have created ALL through Him (by the way the Spirit Son is a person, not an "it".) if He is a created being? The answer is....He couldn't have.

John 1 tells us: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

It says the Word was God. Do you think the Word was God the Father? I don't think so because verse 14 tells us that the Word became flesh. That was the Son. Not the Father.

So the Son is God.

So, logically, in the beginning, God the Father existed and so did God the Son.

The spirit Son laid the foundation for the Universe, it is a created form of God.

Not according to John 1. John 1 says the Word is God.

He was given the fullness of the Father, Col 1, Phil 2. In effect he is "a god", but not God himself.

Your statement above disagrees with what the text of John 1 actually says. John 1 says the Word was God. Not God "in effect" or "a god". I thought you said there was only one True God? How can the Son be "a god" "in effect"....that would make Him a false god...wouldn't it?

John 5:18 notice WHO is saying that he is equal too his Father. It is not Jesus Christ. It is the Jews. Christ came to glorify his God.

Nope. You are wrong.

Here is the text in question: "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God."

Those are NOT the words of the Jewish leaders.

Those are the words of St. John the Apostle writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

It is Saint John who tells us that the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Him because He made Himself equal with God. (Notice the bolded words above.)

To paraphrase...John is saying. "Jesus made Himself equal with God and that is why the Jews wanted Him dead."

John's words cannot be dismissed by saying the Jews must've misunderstood Jesus unless we are also prepared to say that St. John misunderstood Jesus and the Holy Spirit must've misunderstood Jesus too since He inspired the Apostle John.

I am not prepared to say that they misunderstood Jesus or the whole Bible might as well be thrown in the trash can at that point.

John never says that Jesus is God. Neither did Jesus.

Wrong on both counts and John 5:18 shows that all by itself.

It is in John 17:3 where Jesus Christ told us that only the Father is the true God.

He doesn't say only the Father is the true God. You changed that.

It says the Father is the only True God. And that is true. But that is a big difference.

That is a Truth that does not negate that fact that the Son is the only True God.

After all, there is only one True God. But there are three persons in that One, True God.


So John 17:8 doesn't say what you say it does. And there is no problem with the Son being God and saying that for what He said is true.

God's first creation was his express image spiritual son.

That's a logical impossibility. How could the Son be a creation if God the Father created ALL through Him?

God created All through this image son. This son is not Jesus, the Universe was not created by a man. Jesus is the body God prepared for his true son as told in Heb 10:38. The spirit son became flesh in the body prepared for it. Think about that.

I have been considering your points, but they really aren't matching up with Scripture or logic, no offense.

The Son cannot have been created according to John 1.
The Bible never says the Son was created.
The Bible says the Son was God since the beginning.
The Bible says the Son took on flesh. That is Jesus. So Jesus is Son who is God from the beginning.

Based on John 5:18 alone, I would say that our trilemma remains.

Jesus made Himself equal to God so....

Was Jesus Lord, Lunatic, or Liar?

Peace.

 

[keypurr]

keypurr, that is illogical. And it doesn't answer my question.

How could God have created ALL through Him (by the way the Spirit Son is a person, not an "it".) if He is a created being? The answer is....He couldn't have.

Not illogical at all.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;


1 God was alone.
2 He created his IMAGE and was pleased that it had his fullness.
3 He used that IMAGE to create everything. for ALL was created through him.
4 He had to be God's firstborn

God created form of God, a godlike spirit. It had the power of the Father, yet it was not God but a form of God. This was all done before TIME as we know it was made. If you count the creation as the beginning then John 1 fits perfectly into this theory.

John 1 tells us: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

It says the Word was God. Do you think the Word was God the Father? I don't think so because verse 14 tells us that the Word became flesh. That was the Son. Not the Father.

The word (logos) is the spirit Son, the express image in Heb 1:3.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

I believe the logos is the spirit Son.

So the Son is God.

No, he is a FORM of God, not God. He is a god.

So, logically, in the beginning, God the Father existed and so did God the Son.

Not according to John 1. John 1 says the Word is God.

The spirit Son is the highest of all creation, and he was given the powers of the Father.

Your statement above disagrees with what the text of John 1 actually says. John 1 says the Word was God. Not God "in effect" or "a god". I thought you said there was only one True God? How can the Son be "a god" "in effect"....that would make Him a false god...wouldn't it?

Easy, God gave him his fullness. God gave him his power. God created all THROUGH him.

Nope. You are wrong.

believe what you wish friend.

Here is the text in question: "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God."

Those are NOT the words of the Jewish leaders.

Those are the words of St. John the Apostle writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

It is Saint John who tells us that the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Him because He made Himself equal with God. (Notice the bolded words above.)

To paraphrase...John is saying. "Jesus made Himself equal with God and that is why the Jews wanted Him dead."

John's words cannot be dismissed by saying the Jews must've misunderstood Jesus unless we are also prepared to say that St. John misunderstood Jesus and the Holy Spirit must've misunderstood Jesus too since He inspired the Apostle John.

I am not prepared to say that they misunderstood Jesus or the whole Bible might as well be thrown in the trash can at that point.



Wrong on both counts and John 5:18 shows that all by itself.

Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Does that really say Jesus said he was God? I think not.

He doesn't say only the Father is the true God. You changed that.

It says the Father is the only True God. And that is true. But that is a big difference.

That is a Truth that does not negate that fact that the Son is the only True God.

After all, there is only one True God. But there are three persons in that One, True God.

(KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(NASB) "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

(NIV) Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The words ONLY TRUE GOD mean just that. Everything else is created.

So John 17:8 doesn't say what you say it does. And there is no problem with the Son being God and saying that for what He said is true.

IT SAYS WHAT IT SAYS,YOU CAN NOT CHANGE IT.

That's a logical impossibility. How could the Son be a creation if God the Father created ALL through Him?

BECAUSE GOD GAVE HIM THE POWER TO DO SO. The spirit Son is a god but not the TRUE God.

Consider Gen 1:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

I have been considering your points, but they really aren't matching up with Scripture or logic, no offense.

The Son cannot have been created according to John 1.
The Bible never says the Son was created.
The Bible says the Son was God since the beginning.
The Bible says the Son took on flesh. That is Jesus. So Jesus is Son who is God from the beginning.

Based on John 5:18 alone, I would say that our trilemma remains.

Jesus made Himself equal to God so....

Was Jesus Lord, Lunatic, or Liar?

Peace.

I am not offended friend, but it is perfectly logical for God to created a Son to do his will and give him the power needed to do it.

Peace Brother

 

[keypurr]

Blind guide.

If true you should have not problem disproving me.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Not illogical at all.

Actually, it is illogical. For it to NOT be illogical it would have to say something like "God created ALL things through Him EXCEPT the Word." But it doesn't say that. So the Son cannot be a created being.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

None of those verses say the Son is a created being and some are illogical unless the Son is an uncreated being.

1 God was alone.

Yes and No. He was...but He is a Trinity of 3 persons.

2 He created his IMAGE and was pleased that it had his fullness.

He cannot have if ALL things were created through that IMAGE. If all things were created through that IMAGE then the IMAGE cannot be a created being.

To have the fullness of God is to be God.

3 He used that IMAGE to create everything. for ALL was created through him.

False. That can only be true if the IMAGE was not created. Otherwise, it is self-contradictory which is a lie.

4 He had to be God's firstborn

Firstborn doesn't mean created in this context. It is a title of preeminence.

God created form of God, a godlike spirit. It had the power of the Father, yet it was not God but a form of God. This was all done before TIME as we know it was made. If you count the creation as the beginning then John 1 fits perfectly into this theory.

Your statement contradicts John 1. John 1 says that the "Word was God." You are saying "it was not God". What you are saying does not match with John 1.

The word (logos) is the spirit Son, the express image in Heb 1:3.

Amen. A person. The only begotten Son of God. Who came to earth and took on human flesh....Jesus.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

I believe the logos is the spirit Son.

Amen. I do too.

No, he is a FORM of God, not God.

John 1 says the logos (who you and I agree is the Sprit Son), is God. You are saying He is not God.

He is a god.

A True god or a false god?

The spirit Son is the highest of all creation, and he was given the powers of the Father.

Ok, I guess. But He is not a creation. The Bible nowhere says the Son was created.

Easy, God gave him his fullness. God gave him his power. God created all THROUGH him.

Then The Word could not be created because God couldn't create Him through Him. He wouldn't be there to be created through.

believe what you wish friend.

Well, look at it more closely. You claimed that John 5:18 records the words of the Jews. It simply doesn't. It is clearly the words of John the Apostle.

If I am mistaken about that...please explain.

Here is the text in question: "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God."

Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Does that really say Jesus said he was God? I think not.

The words that you underlined in John 5:18 merely tell us that the Jews want to kill him. But the entire verse are the words of John the Apostle. It is John who is telling us that Jesus made Himself equal to God.

Why do you not believe what John the Apostle wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

(KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(NASB) "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

(NIV) Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The words ONLY TRUE GOD mean just that. Everything else is created.



IT SAYS WHAT IT SAYS,YOU CAN NOT CHANGE IT.

It is not I who changed what it says. It was you who did that and I corrected you.

It says that the Father is the only True God.

You said that it says that only the Father is the True God.

But that is not what it says. You moved the word "only".

BECAUSE GOD GAVE HIM THE POWER TO DO SO. The spirit Son is a god but not the TRUE God.

Is the Spirit Son a True God or a False God?

Consider Gen 1:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Yes. And?

I am not offended friend, but it is perfectly logical for God to created a Son to do his will and give him the power needed to do it.

I am glad that you are not offended. Some people would be and the conversation would deteriorate.

I am not offended, either. Obviously, we disagree about some things. But I think conversing about differences can be valuable for my learning.

I agree with you that it is perfectly logical for God to create a Son to do His will.

The reason that I say that it is illogical is because that is not what the Bible says. And to say that causes contradictions with what the Bible does say. Particularly in John 1.

Peace Brother

Yup. And Peace to you.