Did God Raise Jesus From The Dead Or Did Jesus Christ Raise Himself?

[Bard_the_Bowman]

But Bard, how is saying that I and the father are one in verse 30 claiming to be God? Look at this in John 17

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

And then further down the chapter,


17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

As Jesus prays to God, he asks him for his disciples to be as one as they are, also saying that he prays not only for them, but all those who believe in their words. So once we are born of God, we are one with God and Christ, but that doesn't make us God! But sons and daughters of God like the following.

2 Corinthians 6

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Jesus also said, my brothers sisters and mother are those who do the will of my father in heaven. And he calls the disciples his brethren, he sees us as brothers and sisters and God as his father and his God. So that make God the Father over all, and Paul said that the head of Christ is God. And Christ is also in subjection and he came here because the Father sent him to bare witness to the truth and Christ Jesus obeyed that commandment. He said, I have a commandment of my father, so as I hear I do. So if the Father commanded him and he obeyed, then the Father is his God.

Hey marhig,

Yes, Jesus prays for us to be one as He and the Father are One. But that just means that we conform our will perfectly with His as He does with the Father. He isn't saying that we will become God.

And we cannot brush aside the fact that Jesus is referred to as the "only begotten Son". We most certainly are sons and daughters of God (thanks be to God for that!) but in a different sense. We are adopted sons and daughters as other Scripture verses show. But not Jesus. He existed before any created thing as pure spirit and through Him all things were made that were made. So His Sonship is quite different than ours.

Sorry Bard, but how is saying that you are a son of God making yourself as God?

We have to remember to read the Gospels through the eyes of 1st century Jews. To claim to be God's Son was to claim to be equal to God which is to claim to be God. That's why they wanted to kill him.

We can try to explain away Jesus' words...but is not very easy to explain away His audience's reaction to His words. They clearly saw that He was claiming to be God and they wanted Him to die because of that.

Are you not a Son of God? I believe that I'm a daughter of God but I'm not God.

I agree with you. But we are not sons/daughters in the same sense that Jesus is or Scripture could not refer to Him as the "only begotten Son". We are sons/daughters in a different sense. In an adoptive sense.

It says in the Bible that God will bring many sons to glory. The difference between us and Jesus Christ is that, we are here because we've sinned,

Wait, what? We are here...do you mean here on earth? Because we sinned.... when and where?

Sorry, I am a little confused at what you are saying here.

and we have to believe, repent and turn from sin, and then once we receive the Holy Spirit, we are then born of God. But Jesus became sin for us, he who knew no sin. He was sinless came into this sinful flesh to bare witness to the truth and save as many as would believe in him and reconcile them to God, he saved and healed. He didn't have to repent, because he had never sinned, and he had God's spirit from the womb. He was not of this world, and Satan couldn't touch him, and because he had never sinned, Satan had nothing in him, but he does with us, as we are sinners and we sin always. But through faith and through Christ, by the spirit, we be given the power to overcome, as Christ was. When Jesus prayed, he said to the Father, you have given me power over all flesh.

Amen.

Jesus said that he was sent to do the works of his father and obey his commandments. He was sent into this world to bare witness to the truth and overcome Satan, and the world, and show us the true way back to God, he was our perfect example. He is the way, the truth and the life. And if we believe in him we will turn from sin, turn from this world, and obey the living God, and do his will, then through Christ, we will be strengthened by the Holy Spirit to do overcome.

Amen again! There seems to be much we can agree on.

There is no name higher than Jesus Christ in heaven, he is over all of us, he is our Lord, but this is because God has given him that authority, and he has set him over all, and set him at his right hand. But to me there is only one God Almighty, and that's the Father, who is also the God as father of Jesus Christ.

And so it looks like our main difference is, (perhaps, I could be wrong), that when I read John's Gospel (especially Chapter 1), I see that Jesus existed prior to anything created.

Since "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)...then He is an unmade being... which makes Him God.

So I believe in the Trinity. Three persons, one God. Definitely a tough concept to grasp but biblically sound, I believe.

I'd never say Jesus was a liar, he only spoke the truth, and I would never say he was crazy

.

Right on, I agree. :thumb:

And he didn't claim to be God, but the Son of God.

This is where we disagree. I think He did and I think that is why they had Him killed.

Why do you think the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead?

And he was in the full power of the Holy Spirit, because he denied all flesh and didn't sin, and because of this he was in the express image of God bodily, and by this he was Emmanuel, God with us.

The reason that He was Emmanuel, God with us...is because He is God.

If He wasn't God, then He wasn't Emmanuel, God with us.

And it says in the Bible, that God was in him reconciling the world unto himself. And when we are born of God, then God is in us too, And Christ is made manifest within our hearts, then through us by the power of the spirit, Christ in us will do his work and reconcile as many to God that believe in him and are willing to do God's will.

Amen.

By the way, Jesus also called God his God whilst he was in heaven, in Revelation 3

Revelation 3

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Great point there. But I think it is not a problem because Jesus is in Heaven in His glorified human body and He appeared to John in it. Jesus remains one person with two natures...a human nature and a divine nature. He can address John and say "my God" as a part of His humanity.

Peace to you.

 

[marhig]

Hey marhig,

Yes, Jesus prays for us to be one as He and the Father are One. But that just means that we conform our will perfectly with His as He does with the Father. He isn't saying that we will become God.

And we cannot brush aside the fact that Jesus is referred to as the "only begotten Son". We most certainly are sons and daughters of God (thanks be to God for that!) but in a different sense. We are adopted sons and daughters as other Scripture verses show. But not Jesus. He existed before any created thing as pure spirit and through Him all things were made that were made. So His Sonship is quite different than ours.



We have to remember to read the Gospels through the eyes of 1st century Jews. To claim to be God's Son was to claim to be equal to God which is to claim to be God. That's why they wanted to kill him.

We can try to explain away Jesus' words...but is not very easy to explain away His audience's reaction to His words. They clearly saw that He was claiming to be God and they wanted Him to die because of that.



I agree with you. But we are not sons/daughters in the same sense that Jesus is or Scripture could not refer to Him as the "only begotten Son". We are sons/daughters in a different sense. In an adoptive sense.



Wait, what? We are here...do you mean here on earth? Because we sinned.... when and where?

Sorry, I am a little confused at what you are saying here.



Amen.



Amen again! There seems to be much we can agree on.



And so it looks like our main difference is, (perhaps, I could be wrong), that when I read John's Gospel (especially Chapter 1), I see that Jesus existed prior to anything created.

Since "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)...then He is an unmade being... which makes Him God.

So I believe in the Trinity. Three persons, one God. Definitely a tough concept to grasp but biblically sound, I believe.

.

Right on, I agree. :thumb:



This is where we disagree. I think He did and I think that is why they had Him killed.

Why do you think the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead?



The reason that He was Emmanuel, God with us...is because He is God.

If He wasn't God, then He wasn't Emmanuel, God with us.



Amen.



Great point there. But I think it is not a problem because Jesus is in Heaven in His glorified human body and He appeared to John in it. Jesus remains one person with two natures...a human nature and a divine nature. He can address John and say "my God" as a part of His humanity.

Peace to you.

Yes, we do agree on much, and it's good that you don't judge others like some others do here. As nowhere in the Bible are we taught to believe that Jesus is God, but to believe in him, believe in the gospel, and believe that he is the son of God. And i do! I believe that God looks at the heart first and foremost, and he will reveal to our hearts what we are to know in his time.

I agree, Christ was with God from the beginning, but that doesn't make him God!

It's clear from the Bible that the head of Christ is God, that Christ is under subjection to God, and it is the father who is God of all. And he has exalted Christ Jesus and set him at his right hand and given him the power and authority over all. To me, the father is clearly the only true God, and Jesus says this himself when he said

"This is life eternal, to know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

I don't believe that we have any of our human nature in heaven, i believe anything of our human nature is left behind, our human nature is our flesh, Jesus had a human nature but he denied it and never sinned, we do sin and this is what God wants us to stop doing, and the only way is through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

And i believe that God only takes the good back to him. When we die, i believe that the flesh goes back to the dust, and the Spirit goes back to God who gave it. As it says in Ecclesiastes.

And i never said that God wasn't with us, yes he was seen fully in Christ Jesus. It says in the Bible that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. God is in his people now, but were not God.

Jesus was Emmanuel because God was in his fullness through him, he was in the express image of God, because Satan and this world had nothing in him, and God was seen fully through him.

And as for Revelation 3, i really do think that what Jesus says speaks for itself. He clearly calls God my God many times once he is ascended to the father. And I believe that he means just that.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The express image of God in Heb 1 is proof that the true son is a spirit being.

The Son was Pure Spirit, until He willingly came to earth, took on flesh in His Incarnation and became Emmanuel...God with us.

Only one man was given this power on Earth. I see this spirit as the logos. Jesus was the body God prepared for his logos, Christ.

Jesus was the body? No. Jesus is a person. Your statement above sort of sounds like Jesus was the human host to a spiritual parasite. Or like He was possessed.

Jesus is a person. Jesus is the Logos. And when He came to Earth, He took on His body.

There is only one true supreme God, the Father.

It is true that there is only one, true God. It is true that the Father is God. And it is true that Jesus is God. In Hebrews 1:8 the Father says of the Son "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

God the Father refers to the Son as "God" and acknowledges that He has a throne.

The express image was given the fullness of his creator, he/it is a creature.

The Bible nowhere teaches that Jesus is a creature. And Jesus isn't an "it". He is a person.

The firstborn of all creatures. Give it a study friend and see what you come up with.

Firstborn doesn't necessarily mean "created". It is a title for a position of preeminence.

 

[keypurr]

The Son was Pure Spirit, until He willingly came to earth, took on flesh in His Incarnation and became Emmanuel...God with us.



Jesus was the body? No. Jesus is a person. Your statement above sort of sounds like Jesus was the human host to a spiritual parasite. Or like He was possessed.

Jesus is a person. Jesus is the Logos. And when He came to Earth, He took on His body.



It is true that there is only one, true God. It is true that the Father is God. And it is true that Jesus is God. In Hebrews 1:8 the Father says of the Son "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

God the Father refers to the Son as "God" and acknowledges that He has a throne.



The Bible nowhere teaches that Jesus is a creature. And Jesus isn't an "it". He is a person.



Firstborn doesn't necessarily mean "created". It is a title for a position of preeminence.

Think my friend.

If God created everything through his Son his Son had to be firstborn of all creation/creatures. Heb 1:3, Col 1:15.

You most likely will not hear that from your Pastor.

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[Bard_the_Bowman]

Hi Bard the Bowman

This my answer to your question.

Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 5:20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.



These are the reasons the Jewish leaders put Jesus to death there hearts were not right they knew the truth but they knew also they would have to lose there life to obey it.

The easiest way to do this would be to get rid of Jesus and take away there conscience

That is an interesting interpretation of the Scriptures but the Scriptures don't tell us that that is why they wanted Jesus killed.

The Scriptures have a much more direct explanation in John 10:33:

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

To paraphrase: "We are gonna kill you because you think you are God."

The Jewish leaders clearly understood that Jesus claimed equality with God (that's what "makest thyself God" means), and claiming equality with God was to claim to be God.

And the Scripture is equally clear that that is why they wanted to kill Him.

That's what "For a good work we stone thee not....but...because....thou makest thyself God." means.

I think the questions for us today are:

Was Jesus God as He claimed to be?

Or was Jesus lying?

Or was Jesus crazy?

but the word of God never dies it will go on and on and on through more generation passed our generation but right now it is are generation and we are responsible for our action once we know the truth.

We can crucify Jesus in our own hearts all over again if we don't truly believe in him and his life.
They that believe with there mouths but don't truly live it will not enter into the kingdom of God.

I agree.

Peace.



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[Bard_the_Bowman]

He is the exact IMAGE of his creator.

Can you show me a Scripture that says He was created?

The first of all creatures.

Nope. Because He isn't a creature.

John 1 clearly states that: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

If nothing was made without him...then He cannot be something that was made.

If He is something that was made, He would have had to have been made by Himself which is logically impossible.

So He is an unmade, uncreated person...which is God.

Heb 1:3, Col 1:15. God created all through him.
He was given the fullness of the Father.

Ok.

He/it is a spiritual being, not a man.

Wrong. He was a purely spiritual being until He took on flesh and dwelt among us.

He is a created form of God. Phil 2

No. He is God who took on flesh. But He wasn't created because He pre-existed creation as John 1 says.

Can you name ANY IMAGE that is not created?

Maybe. Right after you name any son who does not have the same nature of his father.

This powerful Son dwelled in the body God provided for it in Heb 10:5. That body is Jesus.

Jesus isn't body just like you and me aren't bodies.

Jesus is a person just like you and me are persons.

Hebrews 10:5 is referencing Psalm 40 which basically tells how obedience to God's will is a better sacrifice than killing animals. Hebrews is showing that the Son took on human flesh and lived a life of perfect obedience in accordance with God's will.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Think my friend.

If God created everything through his Son his Son had to be firstborn of all creation/creatures. Heb 1:3, Col 1:15.

You most likely will not hear that from your Pastor.

Not true.

God could create everything through His Son who has existed eternally with Him.

Just like John 1:1 says: " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

And then John says in 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..."

That would be Jesus. Jesus was made flesh and dwelt among us so Jesus is the Word.

It all could read: "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. And Jesus was made flesh, and dwelt among us...."

Peace.

 

[keypurr]

Can you show me a Scripture that says He was created?

Nope. Because He isn't a creature.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


Show me any IMAGE that is not created, any Image.

John 1 clearly states that: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

If nothing was made without him...then He cannot be something that was made.

If He is something that was made, He would have had to have been made by Himself which is logically impossible.

What does this tell you?

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Wrong. He was a purely spiritual being until He took on flesh and dwelt among us.

Agree somewhat

No. He is God who took on flesh. But He wasn't created because He pre-existed creation as John 1 says.

Nope, He is the Son of God. The Son of a King is a Prince, not a King.

Maybe. Right after you name any son who does not have the same nature of his father.

The nature of the Father is Spirit.

Jesus isn't body just like you and me aren't bodies

.

Yes he is except he was sinless.

Jesus is a person just like you and me are persons.

Hebrews 10:5 is referencing Psalm 40 which basically tells how obedience to God's will is a better sacrifice than killing animals. Hebrews is showing that the Son took on human flesh and lived a life of perfect obedience in accordance with God's will.

Peace.

Nope it is not, It is about the spirit son who will come to dwell in the body God PREPARED for IT.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Just something else to consider. Not meant to get tangetial or de-rail.

The Bible says that God is love. (1 John 4:8)

As Peter Kreeft has written, love has 3 parts:

1. A lover,
2. A beloved,
3. the relationship between them.

If God is love... there has to have always been another being for Him to love.

There cannot have been a time when He was all alone because then He couldn't be Love.

He could only self-love and that is narcissism.

True love is a total self giving of oneself to another.

So the Son has to always have existed in order for God to be love.

Which means that the Son was not created.

Which means that the Son is an uncreated being...which is God.

 

[keypurr]

Not true.

God could create everything through His Son who has existed eternally with Him.

How could he be always be with his Father if he is an IMAGE? An IMAGE is a copy of something that already exist. God was alone until he created his IMAGE and he was pleased that it contained his fullness.

Just like John 1:1 says: " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

This Spirit Son was with God in the beginning for God created all THROUGH IT.

And then John says in 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..."

That would be Jesus. Jesus was made flesh and dwelt among us so Jesus is the Word.

It all could read: "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. And Jesus was made flesh, and dwelt among us...."

Peace.

The Word, LOGOS is NOT Jesus, it is the Spirit Son that went into him at his anointing.

You swallow tradition without thinking of what is written.

It is important to see that the express IMAGE of God is firstborn of all CREATURES/CREATION.

This Son is a created form of God just as it tells you in Phil 2.

I am trying to show you something that took me sixty years of prayerful study to see.
God has blessed me with SOME understanding of these verses.

 

[keypurr]

Just something else to consider. Not meant to get tangetial or de-rail.

The Bible says that God is love. (1 John 4:8)

As Peter Kreeft has written, love has 3 parts:

1. A lover,
2. A beloved,
3. the relationship between them.

If God is love... there has to have always been another being for Him to love.

There cannot have been a time when He was all alone because then He couldn't be Love.

He could only self-love and that is narcissism.

True love is a total self giving of oneself to another.

So the Son has to always have existed in order for God to be love.

Which means that the Son was not created.

Which means that the Son is an uncreated being...which is God.

THE SON IS THE EXPRESS IMAGE, ALL IMAGES ARE CREATIONS.

GOD WAS ALONE UNTIL HE CREATED HIS EXPRESS IMAGE.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

This verse doesn't say that Jesus was created.

You are assuming that firstborn means created. It doesn't. It can mean that, but it also can be a title to show a position of preeminence and authority.

Several Old Testament figures were referred to as "firstborn" even though they were not literally the first to be born. They were called that because of their position of preeminence. I will have to do some digging to find them.

Firstborn received greater inheritance, became the ruling and religious head of the family after the father, became priests over the family, etc. That's why Israel is called God's "firstborn" nation...they were to be a kingdom of priests over the nations. David and Solomon were both called "firstborn" sons to act as kings and priests, even though we know David wasn't literally a firstborn son. It was a title showing preeminence. Continuing that pattern, Jesus comes as the "firstborn" to show His authority, and preeminence over all things.

It doesn't mean He was a created being.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Neither of these verses say that Jesus was created.

Show me any IMAGE that is not created, any Image.

Ok. But just one....Jesus.

John 1 makes that clear. You seem to be sort of ignoring John 1. Jesus is the Word that became flesh for us, and that is the Word that existed with God from the beginning.

If He was created, then He wasn't there from the beginning.....because then it wouldn't have been from the beginning. It would've been after the beginning.

Now how about you answer my question...name one son who does not share the same nature with his father?

What does this tell you?

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

That Jesus is fully divine.

Colossians 2:9 confirms that: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Agree somewhat

yeah, I can see how we are somewhat in agreement on this point.

Nope, He is the Son of God.

Bingo, Bango, Bongo! The "only begotten" Son of God. And sons have the same nature as their fathers.

And His claims to be God's Son is why the Jewish leaders wanted Him dead. Because claiming God as Father or to be God's Son was to claim to be God and the Jewish leaders knew it.

That is what Scripture tells us.

The Son of a King is a Prince, not a King.

Forget about titles.

Any son is the same kind of being as the father.

Whatever kind of being God the Father is....that is the same kind of being that Jesus the Son is.

The nature of the Father is Spirit.

And so was the Son. Until He willing emptied Himself out of love for us.

Yes he is except he was sinless.

No, I meant Jesus isn't just a body that got filled up with the Logos.

Jesus is body/soul composite like we are. His physical body and the Logos. That is Jesus.

He is the Logos we read about in John 1 who took on a physical body that we can read about in john 1 as well.

Nope it is not, It is about the spirit son who will come to dwell in the body God PREPARED for IT.

I'd bet a twinkie that you wrote that without reading all of Psalm 40.

And remember, when reading the Psalms, the genre is that of poetry or poetry to music. That doesn't mean that what is stated isn't true, but it is stated in poetic form and that has to be kept in mind. And that is what is quoted in Hebrews. Poetry/poetry to music...a psalm.

Peace.


(good night...maybe talk tomorrow).

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

]THE SON IS THE EXPRESS IMAGE, ALL IMAGES ARE CREATIONS.

False. The nature of an image is to copy the original.

But that doesn't mean "all images are creations."

John 1 proves that all images ARE NOT creations.

GOD WAS ALONE UNTIL HE CREATED HIS EXPRESS IMAGE.

That's impossible and the Bible nowhere tells us that God was alone.

Because that means there would've been a time when "God is love" would be a lie.

God can't BE love without another person TO love.

God can't be Love and be alone.

That isn't Love.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

How could he be always be with his Father if he is an IMAGE? An IMAGE is a copy of something that already exist. God was alone until he created his IMAGE and he was pleased that it contained his fullness.

How do you know God was alone?

How can God be love (1 John 4:8) without another person to love?

This Spirit Son was with God in the beginning for God created all THROUGH IT.

Amen. And that means that God wasn't alone. God is Love and God the Father loves God the Son.

That's two persons loving. Always, eternally, as God.

The Word, LOGOS is NOT Jesus, it is the Spirit Son that went into him at his anointing.

Then what happened to Jesus' spirit when the Spirit Son went into Him?

What you are describing sounds like divine possession.

The Word is the Son of God, who took on flesh as Jesus when He walked the earth.

You swallow tradition without thinking of what is written.

I will admit to being a bit simple-minded, but I think I've shown that my beliefs are based on what is written .

We just have different interpretations of what is written.

But my beliefs, at the very least, are just as valid as yours.

Your statement about tradition could just as easily have come from me and been directed at you.

It is important to see that the express IMAGE of God is firstborn of all CREATURES/CREATION.

Firstborn doesn't always mean created. And it doesn't alway mean "the first one born", either.

I will find those O.T. figures who were called firstborn...who really weren't.

This Son is a created form of God just as it tells you in Phil 2.

I can agree that that is the Son taking the form of a creature...a human being. Yes. And that is Jesus.

I am trying to show you something that took me sixty years of prayerful study to see.
God has blessed me with SOME understanding of these verses.

Oh and I can see that you do have understanding, keypurr. Seriously.

And I think you bring up good points to consider. Obviously, we don't agree on everything, but sometimes I think a person can learn more when discussing things with someone who has different viewpoints versus discussing things only with people who will always only agree with one's viewpoints.

And I thank you for the conversation.

Peace.

 

[keypurr]

False. The nature of an image is to copy the original.

But that doesn't mean "all images are creations."

John 1 proves that all images ARE NOT creations.



That's impossible and the Bible nowhere tells us that God was alone.

Because that means there would've been a time when "God is love" would be a lie.

God can't BE love without another person TO love.

God can't be Love and be alone.

That isn't Love.

Name ANY IMAGE that is not a creation. I'm waiting for your answer.

If God's Son created all them before the Son was created there was only God. The Express Image is the FIRST creation.

Give it some thought.


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[keypurr]

How do you know God was alone?

How can God be love (1 John 4:8) without another person to love?



Amen. And that means that God wasn't alone. God is Love and God the Father loves God the Son.

That's two persons loving. Always, eternally, as God.



Then what happened to Jesus' spirit when the Spirit Son went into Him?

What you are describing sounds like divine possession.

The Word is the Son of God, who took on flesh as Jesus when He walked the earth.



I will admit to being a bit simple-minded, but I think I've shown that my beliefs are based on what is written .

We just have different interpretations of what is written.

But my beliefs, at the very least, are just as valid as yours.

Your statement about tradition could just as easily have come from me and been directed at you.



Firstborn doesn't always mean created. And it doesn't alway mean "the first one born", either.

I will find those O.T. figures who were called firstborn...who really weren't.



I can agree that that is the Son taking the form of a creature...a human being. Yes. And that is Jesus.



Oh and I can see that you do have understanding, keypurr. Seriously.

And I think you bring up good points to consider. Obviously, we don't agree on everything, but sometimes I think a person can learn more when discussing things with someone who has different viewpoints versus discussing things only with people who will always only agree with one's viewpoints.

And I thank you for the conversation.

Peace.

You do to need another person to express love. That is an inner thought.

Col 1:15 tells you that Christ is the firstborn of all creation/creatures.
Everything was created through this spirit son.

Bard we do differ but I enjoy sharing with you. You need not agree with me to be friends. Let us continue to share and enjoy as we learn from each other.

Peace, Bob


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[Stevo1]

Hey Stevo,

We won’t find anywhere that Jesus comes straight out and announces “Hey everyone, I am God” like many people in the 21st century Western World would like to hear.

But He did make the claim to be God and the Bible shows us that that is exactly what His first century Jewish audience heard.

There isn’t room to address all of the verses and I have a problem with being concise as it is so how about we just look at a couple?

1.Jesus’ claim that God was His Father was seen as Jesus claiming to be equal to God which means He was claiming to be God.

How does that say that Jesus is God?
If you said you were your father's son does that make you the father does that make you equal to your father (no) but you might get people saying oh you look like or act like your father.
Jesus was saying here he had his father in him. He never once said he was God because he wasn't. Only the Jewish leaders were saying that he was making himself equal to God. You said there are many verses to prove that Jesus is God but i can not find one, only these accusations from the Jewish leaders. I can find many that show he is not God but the Son.
He was only doing the will of the father as we must do too, never did he do his own will but thy will be done so if he wasn't doing his own will he can't be God.

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 5:18 makes that obvious : “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father making Himself equal with God.”

John 10:33 says something similar: “The Jews answered him saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”

The Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead because He thought He was equal to God.

The questions we have to ask, I think, are:

Was He God?

If He wasn't, was He lying or was He crazy?

What do you think?

So my answers to your questions

No he wasn't God

No he wasn't lying because it wasn't Jesus saying he was God

And no far from it we would be the crazy one's if we believe he was.

People want signs to be able to believe in anything,
Jesus was that sign and the example as any teacher you meet, if you don't follow the example we will never learn the truth and the way.

Hey Stevo,

We won’t find anywhere that Jesus comes straight out and announces “Hey everyone, I am God” like many people in the 21st century Western World would like to hear.

But He did make the claim to be God and the Bible shows us that that is exactly what His first century Jewish audience heard.

There isn’t room to address all of the verses and I have a problem with being concise as it is so how about we just look at a couple?

1.Jesus’ claim that God was His Father was seen as Jesus claiming to be equal to God which means He was claiming to be God.

John 5:18 makes that obvious : “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father making Himself equal with God.”

John 10:33 says something similar: “The Jews answered him saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”

The Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead because He thought He was equal to God.

The questions we have to ask, I think, are:

Was He God?

If He wasn't, was He lying or was He crazy?

What do you think?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Not true.

God could create everything through His Son who has existed eternally with Him.

Just like John 1:1 says: " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

And then John says in 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..."

That would be Jesus. Jesus was made flesh and dwelt among us so Jesus is the Word.

It all could read: "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. And Jesus was made flesh, and dwelt among us...."

Peace.

The beginning John is speaking of does not necessarily mean eternity past.

MSG
“God sovereignly made me—the first, the basic— before he did anything else. I was brought into being a long time ago, well before Earth got its start. I arrived on the scene before Ocean, yes, even before Springs and Rivers and Lakes. Before Mountains were sculpted and Hills took shape, I was already there, newborn; Long before God stretched out Earth’s Horizons, and tended to the minute details of Soil and Weather, And set Sky firmly in place, I was there. When he mapped and gave borders to wild Ocean, built the vast vault of Heaven, and installed the fountains that fed Ocean, When he drew a boundary for Sea, posted a sign that said no trespassing, And then staked out Earth’s Foundations, I was right there with him, making sure everything fit. Day after day I was there, with my joyful applause, always enjoying his company, Delighted with the world of things and creatures, happily celebrating the human family.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Yes, we do agree on much, and it's good that you don't judge others like some others do here. As nowhere in the Bible are we taught to believe that Jesus is God, but to believe in him, believe in the gospel, and believe that he is the son of God.

Sons have the same natures as their fathers. And Jesus did claim to be God. That is why the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Him.

You do not think He was God, but if He wasn't...then He was either crazy because He thought He was but didn't realize He wasn't....or He was liar because He claimed to be but He knew He wasn't.

Remember, to the 1st century Jewish mind, to claim to be God's son is to claim to be equal to God is to claim to be God.

And that is why they wanted to kill Him.

And i do! I believe that God looks at the heart first and foremost, and he will reveal to our hearts what we are to know in his time.

Amen. :thumb:

I agree, Christ was with God from the beginning, but that doesn't make him God!

Actually, it does. Because to be there from the beginning is to be an uncreated being. An uncreated being is God.

John 1 tells us that Jesus was there from the beginning.

If Jesus was created by the Father...then He wasn't there from the beginning and that would contradict John 1.

It's clear from the Bible that the head of Christ is God, that Christ is under subjection to God, and it is the father who is God of all. And he has exalted Christ Jesus and set him at his right hand and given him the power and authority over all. To me, the father is clearly the only true God, and Jesus says this himself when he said

"This is life eternal, to know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

Jesus can be God and still be lesser in other ways. For example, God the Father "sent" the Son into the world.
The Father is the "sender" Jesus is the one who was "sent". But that doesn't mean that the Father is God and Jesus isn't. Jesus said this in John 13:16: "...neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him..."

The Son isn't greater than the Father...but He still has the same nature as the Father and so is God.

I don't believe that we have any of our human nature in heaven,

Why not?

The Resurrection of Jesus was a physical, bodily Resurrection. His Ascension into Heaven was a physical, bodily Ascension. He got His wounds in His body poked by Thomas, He ate fish, etc.

i believe anything of our human nature is left behind, our human nature is our flesh,

Why?

I don't think I've run into that idea in the Bible yet...but I admit that I do not know the Bible as well as I should.

But Jesus didn't leave anything of His human nature behind. His Resurrection was a bodily one.

Jesus had a human nature but he denied it and never sinned

,

I disagree. He embraced His human nature and showed us how to live. Yes, He never sinned...but that isn't denying human nature...that is living with human nature perfectly in the way we were intended to live. Just like Adam and Eve did before they sinned.

we do sin and this is what God wants us to stop doing, and the only way is through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Amen. But that is not to deny our human nature but to live with it in accordance with God's will.

And i believe that God only takes the good back to him. When we die, i believe that the flesh goes back to the dust, and the Spirit goes back to God who gave it. As it says in Ecclesiastes.

God said that human flesh is good. In Genesis, after creating everything, He saw that it was very good.(Genesis 1:31)

Ecclesiastes is a unique book in the Bible because it basically asks the question that the rest of the Bible answers.

It says everything is vanity under the sun. But the one thing the author doesn't try or mention is true religion and relationship with God. Love of God and love of neighbor.

The rest of the Bible shows us God's love and shows us the answer to Ecclesiastes which is to know and love Him and love others. Yes, our bodies and spirits are separated at death. That is the definition of death. But they will be reunited at His Second Coming.

And i never said that God wasn't with us, yes he was seen fully in Christ Jesus. It says in the Bible that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. God is in his people now, but were not God.

I agree with you. My point was that God was with us because Jesus is God. And yes, God is in his people now, but we are not God. I agree.

Jesus was Emmanuel because God was in his fullness through him, he was in the express image of God, because Satan and this world had nothing in him, and God was seen fully through him.

Because He is God. This is a big topic because there are so many scripture verses that need to be looked at and we have barely touched on some.

I think you once stated that the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus is not God.
I think that the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus is God.

And as for Revelation 3, i really do think that what Jesus says speaks for itself. He clearly calls God my God many times once he is ascended to the father. And I believe that he means just that.

Jesus is the Son of God by nature. We are sons/daughters by adoption/grace. Jesus words can be true, and He can be God.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Name ANY IMAGE that is not a creation. I'm waiting for your answer.

Didn't you read post #172?

If God's Son created all them before the Son was created there was only God.

You are assuming that the Son was created. Where does the Bible say that the Son was created?

John 1 says He was there from the beginning.

If God the Father was ever alone....the "God is Love" is a lie.

The Express Image is the FIRST creation.

That is just your interpretation. I disagree.

John 1 shows that Jesus is not a creation...so He is an uncreated being...so He is God.

Give it some thought.

I'm trying. And since "without Him not anything was made that was made"... then He Himself cannot have been made.

So Jesus is God.