Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[Clete]

They always try to hide this unjust predetermined damnation in God's "sovereignty". Just another twisted anti-Biblical definition that they use.

Quite so!

And what's more is that they do it on purpose. They're evil, not stupid. They know full well that a god that did such things could not be considered just in any normal sense of the word and so they redefine the word rather than adjust their doctrine. They do this intentionally and very consistently. They've created their own religious language in order to preserve pagan Greek philosophical ideas about how their god cannot change in any way whatsoever. Every single doctrine they teach is predicated on that single premise and they will do anything to preserve it. They have too! Their whole world crashes down around their ankles if they don't. I've stopped attempting to convince any of them. It's all but hopeless. All that's left is to make the argument and hope that the seed finds fertile soil in someone who happens to read it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[zzub]

funny I come here to peek after a long absence and find pate still has a chip on his shoulders. he must hate himself

'sake Tulibum. Were you predestined to talk nonsense or what?

 

[lifeisgood]

Tambora and I have asked B57 and I have asked Nanja:

Do you tell your children when you put them to bed that God loves them?

Or

Do you tell them that they might be ones that were born only so God could send them to hell and there isn't a darn thing they can do about it?


However, I’m still waiting for an answer.

 

[Jacob]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

I am not familiar with the word predestinate.

 

[beloved57]

When God created the world and made men He had already purposed that a mass of people would go to hell and destruction for their wickedness, that they were never included with them He had purposed to save in Christ as these were 2 Tim 1:9

⁹ Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

They were excluded from this Gods own purpose and Grace in Christ Jesus before the world began !

They are called the reprobate, the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction Rom 9:22

²² What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The wicked Prov 16:4

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Job 21:30

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought[carried or borne] forth to the day of wrath.

Please understand this sobering truth about the God of the scripture that God purposely made these people vessels of wrath !

 

[zzub]

When God created the world and made men He had already purposed that a mass of people would go to hell and destruction for their wickedness, that they were never included with them He had purposed to save in Christ as these were 2 Tim 1:9

Utter rot. 2 Tim1:0 say nothing about destruction. Nor reprobation. As for 'Their wickedness'? This idiot is now denying predestination - hypocrite.

They are called the reprobate, the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction Rom 9:22

More rot. The Bible actually says this:
English Standard Version
And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”

 

[beloved57]

The lake of fire was made for them God predestinated to hell/wrath​ !


This is true because of what Jesus says here Matt 25:41

⁴¹ Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Now the word prepared the greek word hetoimazō :



It means in this context to have been ordained, predetermined as in Rev 9:15

And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men

Now this lake f fire was prepared for specific certain ones according to Jesus words Matt 25:41 the devil and his angels or messengers.

Now who are the devil and his angels ? We all know the devil is, however something is being revealed here in this text as to who his angels/messengers are. Its not limited to the angelic angels, but it includes the goats of mankind on Christ left hand. All who like the devil are under the curse. All the unsaved cursed under their sins against the law, are messengers of the devil. They worship him and their names were not written in the Lambs book Rev 20:15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This lake of fire is the same place Jesus refers to in Matt 25:41 !

 

[zzub]

The lake of fire was made for them God predestinated to hell/wrath​ !

Particular Redemption

Another title to the often-used "limited atonement." The idea is this: If Jesus died for you, you will be saved. There is no chance that you will not be saved. Berkhof writes:

"The atonement not only made salvation possible for the sinner, but actually secured it...the Calvinist teaches that the atonement meritoriously secured the application of the work of redemption to those for whom it was intended and this rendered their complete salvation certain."

But the Scriptures do mention certain people who are in danger of perishing, even though Christ died for them.

Peter wrote of false teachers who were "even denying that sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction on themselves" (2 Pet. 2:1,2).

Here were men "bought" who, nevertheless, had made shipwreck of their faith.

Paul urges the Romans, "Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died" (Rom. 14:15). This does not seem to fit the Calvinist view of redemption, which makes destruction impossible for all objects of Christ's cross-work.

Still, the main point of contention for many is the scope of Calvary, the individuals for whom it was intended. Calvinists say Jesus made a vicarious atonement for the elect and the elect only. All other Christians claim that Christ died to make full atonement for every human being on the earth - including the Apostles and early Church Fathers.

 

[zzub]

The passages that warn Christians against falling away give no end of trouble to Calvinists. On the one hand, they must affirm the threats are real and to be taken seriously. On the other, they are forced to confess that there is something hypothetical about them - that they will never truly come to pass for the "saved" person.


"It is impossible," wrote the author of Hebrews, "for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace" (Heb. 6:4-6).

The usual way out of this knotty problem is to say that these are not truly born-again disciples. They are false professors, tares among the wheat.

But the text does say these people have "shared in the Holy Spirit," which certainly sounds as if they were Christians.

Besides that, these warnings are against "falling away," a misnomer if they never attained the position from which to fall.

 

[zzub]

Calvinism is one more illustration of the futility of systematic theology.

God's truths, particularly relating to soteriology, are too lofty to be put into concise formulae. The Five Points of Calvinism oversimplify the profound truths of God. They derive their force from proof-texts rather than the general tenor of Scripture.

 

[zzub]

Will the Calvinist EVER see fit to adopt a Berean spirit (Acts 17:11) and honestly rethink their Calvinism. To lay aside the commentaries of Calvin and Gill, the theology of Warfield and Hodge.

With an open Bible and mind, may they take a second look at the so-called "doctrines of grace" to see if they truly are the doctrines of Christ.

 

[beloved57]

The devil's messengers whom the lake of fire was prepared for, are them whose names were not written in the book of life, which simply are them whom God never Chose in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4.

 

[Nanja]

The devil's messengers whom the lake of fire was prepared for, are them whose names were not written in the book of life, which simply are them whom God never Chose in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4.

Exactly, and because they were never Chosen or Loved by the Father in Christ to be His Adopted Sons and have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7, they were cursed right from the beginning, ordained to be eternally damned: The seed of the devil.

Ps. 37:28
For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus bluntly pointed out satan's offspring, the vessels of wrath!

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Mat. 23:32-33

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

[beloved57]

nanja

Ps. 37:28
For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Excellent quote. The seed of the wicked, or the seed of the wicked one ! in any case its a seed !

 

[Nanja]

nanja


Excellent quote. The seed of the wicked, or the seed of the wicked one ! in any case its a seed !

TY and Amen Brother !

 

[lifeisgood]

Hey, Beloved57 and Nanja:

Do you tell your children when you put them to bed that God loves them?

Or

Do you tell them that they might be ones that were born only so God could send them to hell and there isn't a darn thing they can do about it?

Tambora and I are still waiting for an answer.

 

[beloved57]

nanja

God deliberately created this non-elect portion of mankind be be destroyed Prov. 16:4; Job 21:30and has the Power to do so.

Yes , Prov 16:4

The LORD hath made[for a purpose] all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Or fr the day of wrath, destruction, punishment,damnation, torment, shame

 

[Nanja]

nanja



Yes , Prov 16:4

The LORD hath made[for a purpose] all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Or fr the day of wrath, destruction, punishment,damnation, torment, shame

Absolutely !

These God Purposefully Created to suffer His condemnation and wrath:

Thus the vessels of God's wrath which He prepared to be destroyed Rom. 9:22.


John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Eph. 3:11
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

2 Thes. 1:8-9
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[beloved57]

Another scripture that more than indicates that God purposely created some men for destruction and wrath in the final day of Judgment is Rom 9:21-22

²¹ Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


²² What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Its revealed here that the Sovereign God has the absolute right to make, create, fashion, construct, to author and appoint men to destruction, dishonor or disgrace.

The word dishonour is the greek word atimia and means:

disgrace, dishonor; a dishonorable use.

Now the word disgrace, the english word means:

the loss of respect, honor, or esteem; ignominy; shame:
the disgrace of criminals.

Which coincides with what God says in Daniel regarding the reprobate raised in the last day Dan 12:2

² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Now they were created by God n purpose to suffer eternal shame and contempt !

 

[Jacob]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

9 [FONT=&]For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed [/FONT]tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

18 [FONT=&]Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.[/FONT]

Shalom.

Today is Shlishli (Third), 12-26. It is Yom, Day.

Interesting logic. Is what you said or what you have said said to get people to think about what they believe?

Shalom.

Jacob