Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[TulipBee]

God sends no one to Hell. Men send themselves for not believing in Jesus Christ as Saviour.

All of mankind sent themselves to hell. That's the point of Jesus doing the rescue. You ought to be thanking Jesus for that instead of telling Jesus you don't need Him due to your fake free will.

God is never obligated to be merciful to a rebellious creature. He doesn't owe us mercy. —R.C. Sproul

 

[Nanja]

The Old Testament also mentions the Vessels of Wrath fitted for destruction. Mal 1:4
Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.

This is a people hated by the Lord, and that forever! It's a eternal indignation.They are a cursed people. Jesus says to them Matt 25:41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rom 2:8

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

These had been appointed to Wrath and indignation, and Condemnation!

Yes, these are the portion of mankind, that God never loved and Christ did not die for.

They are not Christ's Sheep that He Knew John 10:4, 14-15 and Promised eternal life to John 10:28.

But they are cursed goats which Christ never knew Mat. 7:23, the devils children Mat. 23:32-33 that were predestinated or appointed to eternal damnation.

 

[Bright Raven]

Yes, these are the portion of mankind, that God never loved and Christ did not die for.

They are not Christ's Sheep that He Knew John 10:4, 14-15 and Promised eternal life to John 10:28.

But they are cursed goats which Christ never knew Mat. 7:23, the devils children Mat. 23:32-33 that were predestinated or appointed to eternal damnation.

Guess what dum dum. Which of these are bound for hell, which of these did Christ not die for;


Romans 3:23 New International Version (NIV)

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

 

[beloved57]

nanja

But they are cursed goats which Christ never knew Mat. 7:23,

Absolutely. And if He never knew them, He never Loved them. How can you have Loved someone with the Divine Love Christ has for His Own, and then say you never even knew them ?

 

[Nanja]

nanja



Absolutely. And if He never knew them, He never Loved them. How can you have Loved someone with the Divine Love Christ has for His Own, and then say you never even knew them ?

Amen, that's not possible because Christ did know every member of His Body, every Sheep of His John 10:27 He bought with His own Blood John 10:14-15.

But the cursed goats He never knew Mat 25:41 because He never loved them nor did He buy them with His own Blood.

So then, in Mat. 7:23 when Christ says, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity", that can't be any He bought with His Blood, because all the iniquity of His Sheep were laid on Him Is. 53:6, and His Righteousness imputed to them Rom. 4:7-8.

 

[Bright Raven]

Amen, that's not possible because Christ did know every member of His Body, every Sheep of His John 10:27 He bought with His own Blood John 10:14-15.

But the cursed goats He never knew Mat 25:41 because He never loved them nor did He buy them with His own Blood.

So then, in Mat. 7:23 when Christ says, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity", that can't be any He bought with His Blood, because all the iniquity of His Sheep were laid on Him Is. 53:6, and His Righteousness imputed to them Rom. 4:7-8.

Why do you need a saviour?

 

[beloved57]

Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

The answer is absolutely Yes. They are in scripture called the vessels of wrath Rom 9:22

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

These are men and women who by the purpose of the Almighty are being fitted for and fitting themselves for destruction. These are they God has purposed to reject and harden in their natural disobedience and rebellion against Him Eph 2:2-3

This has been purposed by God from within Himself, and according to His own purpose. This is natural to the Supreme Being Eph 1:9,11

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The Supreme Being worketh all things according to His Purpose, after the counsel of His Own Will. This certainly applies to the issues of death, even eternal death 1 Sam 2:6

The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up

The word LORD here is an emphasis on God being Supreme and Sovereign.

 

[beloved57]

Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

Yes and it wasn't based upon foreseen evil that they will do, for all men by nature are evil. Yes though they shall be condemned for doing evil,, nevertheless that wasn't Gods primary motive for rejecting them in the first place. His primary motive is found only within Himself. And so this is what leads Paul to anticipate the natural human response to such a High Doctrine Rom 9:18-19

¹⁸ Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


¹⁹ Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

In other words Paul, if its Gods absolute Sovereign will to harden and reject sinners without regard to any outside influence, or the sinners foreseen evil, then why does He find fault with them if they didn't have a choice in the matter ? The conclusion is that God is at fault or unjust to condemn sinners who never had a choice or opportunity for mercy !

 

[Robert Pate]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

9 [FONT=&]For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed [/FONT]tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

18 [FONT=&]Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.[/FONT]

Because of your blaspheme against God and his Son Jesus Christ you will most certainly perish.

 

[beloved57]

Because of your blaspheme against God and his Son Jesus Christ you will most certainly perish.

Did you want to discuss the points made in the post ?

 

[Robert Pate]

All of mankind sent themselves to hell. That's the point of Jesus doing the rescue. You ought to be thanking Jesus for that instead of telling Jesus you don't need Him due to your fake free will.

God is never obligated to be merciful to a rebellious creature. He doesn't owe us mercy. —R.C. Sproul

Man is a sinner without works. He is born into sin, Romans 5:12. It is not his fault that he is a sinner, but it is his fault if he does not receive Christ as his savior.

 

[Robert Pate]

Did you want to discuss the points made in the post ?

You have already made your point. Your point is...

God is a mean, cruel, unjust tyrant, that delights in sending people to hell. Which means that you don't love him or believe in him. It also means that you have 0 faith in him. Hell awaits you.

 

[beloved57]

You have already made your point. Your point is...

God is a mean, cruel, unjust tyrant, that delights in sending people to hell. Which means that you don't love him or believe in him. It also means that you have 0 faith in him. Hell awaits you.

Do you want to discuss the point I made ? This s a discussion board !

 

[beloved57]

¹⁸ Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God hardens mens heart unto disobedience for the purpose of destruction !


This is a stated attribute of the One True and Living God that the carnal man cant receive and also blasphemes God for !

Yes man does harden his own heart as stated in Exodus of the pharaoh here Ex 8:32

And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

However that followed suite after God first hardened his heart as stated He would do from the outset Ex 4:21

And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.


See, f God has purposed to harden ones heart, then that person has no choice but to harden his own heart, because no one can resist His Will.

Thats why Paul in writing Rom 9 and borrowing from the exodus narrative about God hardening his heart, he makes no reference to pharaoh hardening his own heart as its stated in Ex 8:32.

Because thats only the by product of God by His power hardening pharaoh heart according to His own purpose.

 

[Nanja]

¹⁸ Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God hardens mens heart unto disobedience for the purpose of destruction !


This is a stated attribute of the One True and Living God that the carnal man cant receive and also blasphemes God for !

Yes man does harden his own heart as stated in Exodus of the pharaoh here Ex 8:32

And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

However that followed suite after God first hardened his heart as stated He would do from the outset Ex 4:21

And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.


See, f God has purposed to harden ones heart, then that person has no choice but to harden his own heart, because no one can resist His Will.

Thats why Paul in writing Rom 9 and borrowing from the exodus narrative about God hardening his heart, he makes no reference to pharaoh hardening his own heart as its stated in Ex 8:32.

Because thats only the by product of God by His power hardening pharaoh heart according to His own purpose.

Amen Brother!

The natural man cannot receive scriptural Truth 1 Cor. 2:14, specifically that all things were Created by and for Christ Col. 1:16; Eph. 1:11, which entails Creating His Vessels of Mercy to Inherit Eternal Life to be forever with Him; and yet also the vessels of wrath, for His sole Purpose of punishing them for their sins in the second death Prov. 16:4; Rev. 21:8. In His Creaion is manifested His excellent Perfection, to the Glory and Praise of His Grace... and also to the Glory and Praise of His Justice.


Job 23:13-14
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. 14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

Deut. 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment [justice]: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

 

[TulipBee]

funny I come here to peek after a long absence and find pate still has a chip on his shoulders. he must hate himself

 

[Clete]

Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

We know that any doctrine that teaches that God did so is false because we know that God is just.


Calvin's (i.e. Augustine's) god is arbitrary, the opposite of just.

The God of scripture is just and cannot be otherwise.

Therefore, Calvin's god is not the God presented to us in Scripture.

The God of scripture is the only God that actually exists.

Therefore, Calvin's god does not exist.


This logic is inescapable. Calvin's concept of god cannot survive even the simplest understanding of the most basic ideas in the Christian faith. Love, Faith (i.e. trust - not Calvinistic blind beliefism), Hope, Justice, Righteousness, Patience, Kindness, etc - all the qualities that define a person of good character cannot be meaningfully applied to Calvin's god nor to anyone who believes in Calvin's doctrine. Calvinism strips the meaning out of all of these words, especially when applied to their god. An arbitrary god is not just, by definition. An impassible god cannot love, by definition. An immutable god cannot become a man and die for your sins, by definition. A god who condemns people to an eternal punishment for no reason, which is what Calvinism teaches, is neither loving, just, kind nor any other righteous thing, by definition. The Calvinist system is one contradiction after another. Every syllable of it insults not only the living, loving, personal and righteous God of scripture but also the intelligence of it's followers as well as those it attempts to convince.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[beloved57]

We know that any doctrine that teaches that God did so is false because we know that God is just.


Calvin's (i.e. Augustine's) god is arbitrary, the opposite of just.

The God of scripture is just and cannot be otherwise.

Therefore, Calvin's god is not the God presented to us in Scripture.

The God of scripture is the only God that actually exists.

Therefore, Calvin's god does not exist.


This logic is inescapable. Calvin's concept of god cannot survive even the simplest understanding of the most basic ideas in the Christian faith. Love, Faith (i.e. trust - not Calvinistic blind beliefism), Hope, Justice, Righteousness, Patience, Kindness, etc - all the qualities that define a person of good character cannot be meaningfully applied to Calvin's god nor to anyone who believes in Calvin's doctrine. Calvinism strips the meaning out of all of these words, especially when applied to their god. An arbitrary god is not just, by definition. An impassible god cannot love, by definition. An immutable god cannot become a man and die for your sins, by definition. A god who condemns people to an eternal punishment for no reason, which is what Calvinism teaches, is neither loving, just, kind nor any other righteous thing, by definition. The Calvinist system is one contradiction after another. Every syllable of it insults not only the living, loving, personal and righteous God of scripture but also the intelligence of it's followers as well as those it attempts to convince.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Did you want to discuss the OP or just blow wind ?

 

[Right Divider]

Only Calvinists who are flatly ignorant of Calvinist doctrine fail to charge God with this sort of injustice.

It isn't merely that Calvinism teaches that God sends people to Hell before they've done anything to deserve it, it teaches that God did so for no reason at all other than that it pleased Him to do so.

Calvin's own words state it most clearly...

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)​

As for the bible. It obviously does NOT teach this foolishness about God. What the Bible does teach about God is the He is righteous and that His judgements are just. The only way to get Calvinism out of the text of Scripture is to bring the doctrine to the text. The above two posts stand as an excellent example of exactly that. The entire system is one huge example of biblical eisegesis.

Here's the bottom line.

The bible teaches that God is just. That much is not in dispute. We can, therefore, say that either Calvinism is false or the bible is false. If the bible is false then the whole of Christianity, including Calvinism, is false. Either way, Calvinism is false. Calvinism cannot survive the simple notion that God is just.

Resting in Him,
Clete

They always try to hide this unjust predetermined damnation in God's "sovereignty". Just another twisted anti-Biblical definition that they use.

 

[Clete]

Did you want to discuss the OP or just blow wind ?

My post refutes your entire doctrinal worldview, including the opening post and does so directly.