Start here, near the beginning of the thread. By the way, Clete is still active on TOL, so you only need to tag him.
Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?
- Thread starter beloved57
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Start here, near the beginning of the thread. By the way, Clete is still active on TOL, so you only need to tag him.
I would need to read the passages around the quotes from clete as I find that dishonest people share only snippets they can twist into pretzels and then claim something the original person did not mean.
Second, while I find Calvin had a good grasp of salvation, he was a human and therefore he was not perfect in all his views. His penchant for allegory when interpreting the prophets is something I question in his commentaries.
I grew up free-will Mennonite. Then I read my Bible and couldn't escape all the places where God declares that He choses, elects and predestines. I didn't know I was a Calvinist until others started labeling me as such. I just read the Bible. It seems obvious. God has been gracious to me. Probably the closest label for me is Particular Baptist. I don't read anywhere in the Bible where God uses the word double-predestination. It seems like a made-up label used mostly by those who disdain the Sovereignty of God in electing some to redemption while choosing to leave the rest in their dead state.
By all means, please do. You won't have much to read, as that post is #3 in the thread (on mobile; i think the desktop site records post numbers 1 off from the way Tapatalk does it...).
Then by all means do so.
I have been studying and debating Calvinism for what decades. You won't find a single Calvinist that denies one syllable of what I quoted from John Calvin. What I quoted is Calvinism. That is what they believe and you will not be able to even argue otherwise.
I find it unlikely that you've read much, if any, of his commentaries.
Your notion of predestination cannot survive the most basic fundamental notions contained within the Christian faith. Love, hope, righteousness & justice cannot be forced. God cannot make me love Him. God cannot be arbitrary and just.
Contradictions do not exist, Menno. You need to check your premises.
Resting in Him,
Clete
popsthebuilder
New member
Hold on a sec.....do you really think GOD has not destined all ultimately, and knows all things whatsoever?
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God predestines some things to happen, such as the Great Tribulation, His millennial kingdom, GWT Judgement, etc, so that they will in fact happen (No, I'm not saying that He predestines WHEN they will happen, just that they WILL happn.). He does not predestine everything.
He can know everything that can be known. The number of hairs on the head of the boogeyman is not knowable.
beloved57
Well-known member
2 Pet 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
The word for destroyed is the word phthora and means:
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
The word for destroyed is the word phthora and means:
- corruption, destruction, perishing
- that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable
- in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell
- that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable
- in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay
So it doesnt in any sense mean or suggest annihilation.
Theres another scripture that speaks of it as eternal destruction 2 Thess 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
popsthebuilder
New member
Yet but what happens to HIS creation can be wholly and utterly known as we aren't speaking about a make believe fantasy or fairy tail or folk lore, but the all knowing GOD and HIS creation.
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The idea that God knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen comes from pagan greek philosophers. It's not what the Bible says, which is that God learns, risks, and changes his mind about things.
Jeremiah 18, the potter and the clay, teaches us that if a nation, whom God has said He would establish, make prosperous, does wickedness in His sight, or if a nation, whom God has said He would destroy because of their wickedness, repents and turns to Him, then He won't do that which He said he would do.
The future isn't settled.
The best example of this is the ENTIRE BOOK of Jonah. God would rather a nation repent and become righteous than for a prophecy to come true saying that He would destroy said nation.
Gotquestions.org
"What does it mean that God is omniscient?"
Answer: Omniscience is defined as “the state of having total knowledge, the quality of knowing everything.” For God to be sovereign over His creation of all things, whether visible or invisible, He has to be all-knowing. His omniscience is not restricted to any one person in the Godhead—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all by nature omniscient.
God knows everything (1 John 3:20). He knows not only the minutest details of our lives but those of everything around us, for He mentions even knowing when a sparrow falls or when we lose a single hair (Matthew 10:29-30). Not only does God know everything that will occur until the end of history itself (Isaiah 46:9-10), but He also knows our very thoughts, even before we speak forth (Psalm 139:4). He knows our hearts from afar; He even saw us in the womb (Psalm 139:1-3, 15-16). Solomon expresses this truth perfectly when he says, “For you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind” (1 Kings 8:39).
Despite the condescension of the Son of God to empty Himself and make Himself nothing (Philippians 2:7), His omniscience is clearly seen in the New Testament writings. The first prayer of the apostles in Acts 1:24, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart,” implies Jesus’ omniscience, which is necessary if He is to be able to receive petitions and intercede at God’s right hand. On earth, Jesus’ omniscience is just as clear. In many Gospel accounts, He knew the thoughts of his audience (Matthew 9:4; 12:25; Mark 2:6-8; Luke 6:8). He knew about people’s lives before He had even met them. When He met the woman collecting water at the well at Sychar, He said to her, “The fact is you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband” (John 4:18). He also tells His disciples that their friend Lazarus was dead, although He was over 25 miles away from Lazarus’s home (John 11:11-15). He advised the disciples to go and make preparation for the Lord’s Supper, describing the person they were to meet and follow (Mark 14:13-15). Perhaps best of all, He knew Nathanael before ever meeting him, for He knew his heart (John 1:47-48).
Clearly, we observe Jesus’ omniscience on earth, but this is where the paradox begins as well. Jesus asks questions, which imply the absence of knowledge, although the Lord asks questions more for the benefit of His audience than for Himself. However, there is another facet regarding His omniscience that comes from the limitations of the human nature which He, as Son of God, assumed. We read that as a man He “grew in wisdom and stature” (Luke 2:52) and that He learned “obedience through suffering” (Hebrews 5:8). We also read that He did not know when the world would be brought to an end (Matthew 24:34-36). We, therefore, have to ask, why would the Son not know this, if He knew everything else? Rather than regarding this as just a human limitation, we should regard it as a controlled lack of knowledge. This was a self-willed act of humility in order to share fully in our nature (Philippians 2:6-11; Hebrews 2:17) and to be the Second Adam.
Finally, there is nothing too hard for an omniscient God, and it is on the basis of our faith in such a God that we can rest secure in Him, knowing that He promises never to fail us as long as we continue in Him. He has known us from eternity, even before creation. God knew you and me, where we would appear in the course of time, and whom we would interact with. He even foresaw our sin in all its ugliness and depravity, yet, in love, He set his seal upon us and drew us to that love in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:3-6). We shall see Him face to face, but our knowledge of Him will never be complete. Our wonder, love and praise of Him shall go on for all millennia as we bask in the rays of His heavenly love, learning and appreciating more and more of our omniscient God.
As much as I love GQ for learning about God and His word, I think they're mostly wrong on this.
Omniscience along with omnipotence, omnipresence, immutable, and impassable are Greek and Latin quantitative philosophical terms used to describe God's attributes.
But the five real qualitative attributes of God are that He is living, loving, good, personal, and relational. Quality always trumps quantity.
Nanja
Well-known member
Also, in Rom. 9:22:
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The Greek word for destruction here speaking of God's Vessels of Wrath He prepared to be destroyed is the Greek word apōleia which also means:
B the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G684&t=KJV
beloved57
Sure you right !
popsthebuilder
New member
I'm sorry friend, but I do not agree, and in my opinion the Bible doesn't agree either. Are you suggesting the multitude of verses that reference the omnipotence and omniscience of GOD are additions, or mistranslations.... Perhaps you aren't aware of them.
God is Omniscient - Old Testament Evidence
“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).
“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).
“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).
“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).
“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).
“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).
“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).
“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).
“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).
“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).
God is Omniscient – The New Testament Evidence
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).
“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).
“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).
“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).
“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).
(peace)
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popsthebuilder
New member
I must admit that I do actually believe what you are saying in closing. To me; though GOD is omniscient HE too is merciful and omnipotent. So though I cannot wholly explain it, we have constant potential to turn towards GOD. Each choice we make is ours to make yet too each one is allowed for and accounted for and afforded. We are wholly sustained by GOD regardless of if you speak of the physical or spiritual.
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Of course not.
Sooo...
Which of those verses says that God destined all ultimately, and knows all things whatsoever, as you put it?
Questions:
1. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?
2. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?
3. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?
4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?
5. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?
6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)
7. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?
8. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?
1. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?
2. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?
3. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?
4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?
5. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?
6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)
7. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?
8. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?
Questions:
1. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?
2. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?
3. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?
4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?
5. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?
6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)
7. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?
8. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?
1. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?
2. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?
3. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?
4. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?
5. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?
6. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)
7. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?
8. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?
Right Divider
Body part
Mark 9:43-45 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
You try to make the Bible say what you want it to say instead of listening to what it actually says.
How does this say that God knows everything about everything in the past, present, and future?
Are you saying that God can't learn? If so, please explain how this verse says that?
How does this mean that God knows what a man will think before He thinks it? God is able to know what a man thinks, before he ever utters his thoughts.
Notice how "know," "understand," and "comprehend" are all present tense.
Allow me to clarify what this verse is saying, using modern terms, which I will put in "[ ]".
For You formed my inward parts [organs]; You covered me in my mother’s womb.I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well.My frame [skeleton, bones] was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret [in the womb], And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth ["lowest parts of the earth" is, again, referring to the womb].Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed [speaking of the baby in the womb moments after conception, as his cells divide, not having any form yet]. And in Your book [DNA] they all were written, The days fashioned for me [what the person will be like], When as yet there were none of them. - Psalm 139:13-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm139:13-16&version=NKJV
It's a beautiful poem about the baby in the womb.
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