Did God become flesh?

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drbrumley

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So out of the lips of keypurr, David and Jesus are both firstborn of God....

No wonder your clueless.

Oh [MENTION=3801]keypurr[/MENTION] [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION], don't run from the question...

Not so fast my friend.....an answer to psalm 89 please....

20I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

21With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

22The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

23And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

24But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

25I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

26He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

27Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
[MENTION=3801]keypurr[/MENTION] [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION]

Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

In other words, what it basically is saying is:

Also I will make David my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

So again, obviously in context your definition of firstborn has alot to be desired.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I have no idea who those people are. Nor do I really care...

"From the foundation of the world" simply means "since creation."

And the passage says "NOT written", not "written," meaning that their names had never been written in the Book of Life.

The Lamb (Jesus) was slain at one point in history (around 29-30 AD), not "from the foundations of the world" (aka "since creation").

Therefore, "from the foundations of the world MUST be referring to something else in the passage.

"whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"

The only other possibility is that the phrase is referring to their name having not been written in the Book.

Also, I don't see the word "slain" in Genesis 3:15.

Perhaps you meant a different reference?

No, I meant Genesis 3:15. It's considered the first messianic prophecy. Specifically the "slain" is "and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Genesis 3:15 KJV
(15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

In this sense the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world because God didn't place man in the garden with no idea that he might actually sin and need redemption. And it's not just Genesis 3:15, there's other signs woven throughout showing that the cross was a long time planned before.

* The names of the patriarchs in order themselves spell out the redemption plan, including His death.
* "God will provide the lamb" from the words of Abraham.
* Psalm 22, Psalm 23, and Psalm 24 read together
and so on and so forth.
 

Rosenritter

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Those verses does not prove anything that Jesus is God.

God does not change, period.

1. So, are we discarding the "I can do nothing of myself" as being any indication that Jesus is a different person than God?

2. Your statement "God does not change" seems rather unusual from someone with the Open Theist club label. But how would God manifesting himself in the world "change" God in a way that an Open Theist would deny?
 

meshak

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1. So, are we discarding the "I can do nothing of myself" as being any indication that Jesus is a different person than God?

Meaning He is doing everything what He was told by God to do. If He is God, He does not need to be told what to do by anyone. God is almighty.

2. Your statement "God does not change" seems rather unusual from someone with the Open Theist club label. But how would God manifesting himself in the world "change" God in a way that an Open Theist would deny?

Manifesting is power which only almighty can to do. Please don't start nitpicking game. That's what most trin believers play.

I don't know anything about Open Theist club.
 

meshak

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[MENTION=3801]keypurr[/MENTION] [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION]

Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

In other words, what it basically is saying is:

Also I will make David my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

So again, obviously in context your definition of firstborn has alot to be desired.

David is symbol for Jesus.

And this is God speaking about Jesus.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
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Your answer creates more problems than it purports to solve (and it also WARPED the question to something different)...

First, if "the Father created everything with Jesus and us in mind" then we would see the same types of statements about every human that has ever lived, not unique statements related to Jesus, and

Second, and according to you, every poster here defies all logic, including those that acknowledge Jesus as God (like myself) and those that deny Jesus as God (like Meshak and the Jehovah's Witnesses).

I'll remind you that the question was not supposing "a living son before he was born" but rather "Then can you tell me why even groups like Jehovah's Witnesses or individuals like Meshak acknowledge that Jesus existed far before the virgin birth?" You didn't answer that question at all.

Why ask me why someone else believes as they do?

You try to dodge the question I gave you.

So why do you believe Jesus was a conscious person in heaven before He was born.

If you can not answer the question then just say so.

LA
 

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So why do you believe Jesus was a conscious person in heaven before He was born.
We only believe that because that's what the Bible says.

Joh 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So plain and simple that even a child can understand it.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Meaning He is doing everything what He was told by God to do. If He is God, He does not need to be told what to do by anyone. God is almighty.

The problem with that logic is that you're inserting a meaning beyond that which is stated, and your meaning is actually contradicted within the same passage. Jesus made himself equal with God, His actions were the Father's actions.

John 5:16-23 KJV
(16) And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
(17) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
(18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19) Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
(20) For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
(21) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
(22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
(23) That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Your interpretation that Jesus was something inferior to the Father that had to be "told what to do" is denied by His own words, for does it not also say that "the Son quickeneth whom he will?" And what is the conclusion and meaning of all this? "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father."

Are you actually honoring the Son as the Father? It sounds like you are trying to come up with reasons not to honor the Son as the Father.

Manifesting is power which only almighty can to do. Please don't start nitpicking game. That's what most trin believers play.

Now your answer is even more confusing.

1. You have previously stated that God has never manifested in the flesh and cannot because "God does not change, period."
2. Now you just stated that "Manifesting is power which only almighty can do."
which together means that only God can manifest but God cannot manifest because he does not change, period.

All this runs smack contrary to many evidences in scripture where God and angels manifest before men.

1. Who was it that had their feet washed and ate the food that Abraham served at the plains of Mamre?
2. How was it that the angels that visited Lot were accosted by strangers in the streets of Sodom if they were not manifested?
3. Whom was Jacob wrestling long overnight if this was not a being in manifested physical form?
4. John 1:14, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

5. 1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
(16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This is not "nitpicking." I am wondering what you do about these passages. How did you come to the conclusion that God has never manifested but only God can manifest and how do you support that above passages like those five points above?

I don't know anything about Open Theist club.

http://theologyonline.com/member.php?13959-meshak

You're a member of the Open Theists group on Theology Online. If you're not sure what that means then maybe you joined accidentally.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Why ask me why someone else believes as they do?

You try to dodge the question I gave you.

So why do you believe Jesus was a conscious person in heaven before He was born.

If you can not answer the question then just say so.

LA

Why? Because Jesus said so. Because the gospel plainly says so. That should be reason enough.

For reasons including that Jesus says that he was with God before the world began, that John the gospel writer says that Jesus was with God and was God before He Himself created the earth, Jesus plainly states that he was there when Satan was cast down to earth, and the LORD of the Old Testament identifies Himself as Jesus when he speaks.

Zechariah 12:10 KJV
(10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

That isn't the prophet Zechariah who is "me whom they have pierced." That's the LORD speaking in that passage. And again,

Zechariah 11:12-13 KJV
(12) And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
(13) And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Again, the LORD is speaking when he says that HE is being priced at thirty pieces of silver. Who was this? Who is the "him" in Matthew 26:15?

Matthew 26:15 KJV
(15) And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

Matthew 27:3 KJV
(3) Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Matthew 27:9-10 KJV
(9) Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
(10) And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.

You may add those passages to what I have already provided, but that certainly isn't the last. If you faithfully reference Christ's sayings and the New Testament writings with the Old Testament he is revealed as the LORD and Creator, the same one and only God that created the heavens and the earth. Which also explains how Jesus can forgive your sins, why he has life in himself, why the grave could not hold him, why he can raise the dead, how come he said that he would raise himself.

John 2:19-22 KJV
(19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
(21) But he spake of the temple of his body.
(22) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Not "and in three days someone else will raise me up" but "and in three days I will raise it up."

It also explains why the angels of God worship him, why we are to worship him, why we are to honor the Son on earth as we would honor the Father in heaven. If Jesus were not God, this would be blasphemy and rebellion like when Absalom tried to take the kingdom from David, or when Lucifer tried to take heaven from God.
 

meshak

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The problem with that logic is that you're inserting a meaning beyond that which is stated, and your meaning is actually contradicted within the same passage. Jesus made himself equal with God, His actions were the Father's actions.

Jesus never equated Himself with His Father, period.

Why do you take Pharisees' word over Jesus' word?
 

meshak

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You're a member of the Open Theists group on Theology Online. If you're not sure what that means then maybe you joined accidentally.


I was just curious in what they have to say. I never got involved in it.

I still don't know what open theist is.

I did not post even one.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Jesus never equated Himself with His Father, period.

Why do you take Pharisees' word over Jesus' word?

He most certainly did, again and again. Even if neglect the Revelation where he identifies himself as the LORD through specific names and titles, he made himself the God that judges among the gods, that shall inherit the earth. Maybe you aren't familiar with the content of that Psalm he references?

John 10:33-34 KJV
(33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
(34) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Psalms 82:1-8 KJV
(1) A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
(2) How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
(3) Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
(4) Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
(5) They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
(6) I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(7) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
(8) Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Jesus already defined himself as the judge of the earth that will judge everyone, the living and the dead, even those "gods" that shall die like men. He most certainly did make himself God.

Philippians 2:5-6 KJV
(5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
(6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

John 14:8-9 KJV
(8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
(9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Now although the Pharisees acknowledged that Jesus made himself God, and Jesus acknowledged and reinforced that he made himself God, and Paul also tells us that Jesus made himself equal with God, why do you deny this?

On the other hand, the Pharisees denied that Jesus was God. Why would you take the Pharisee's position over Jesus, and John, and Paul? The Pharisees are the "gods" that will "die like men." Our salvation is in the God who judges among the gods.
 

Apple7

New member
Can you spell it from scripture either why people believe this that God became flesh or else show in scripture where it says that He did?

I do not believe that He did.

Thank you.

Jacob


Of course...The Second Person of The Trinity manifested in human form ALL throughout the OT.

Any serious student of scripture already knows this fact.

The Word became flesh not only in the NT, but in the OT as well.

John The Baptist declared this loudly and proudly to us in his ministry.

Among literally hundreds of other epithets, the Second Person of The Trinity was written about in the OT, as 'The Word', 'The Messenger', 'Malek Yahweh', 'The Voice of God', etc, etc, and was directly called 'your God' & 'my God' routinely by the prophets.
 

Jacob

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Of course...The Second Person of The Trinity manifested in human form ALL throughout the OT.

Any serious student of scripture already knows this fact.

The Word became flesh not only in the NT, but in the OT as well.

John The Baptist declared this loudly and proudly to us in his ministry.

Among literally hundreds of other epithets, the Second Person of The Trinity was written about in the OT, as 'The Word', 'The Messenger', 'Malek Yahweh', 'The Voice of God', etc, etc, and was directly called 'your God' & 'my God' routinely by the prophets.
Did God who is invisible become visible in the person of Jesus Christ?
 
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