She can't find a single verse where Jesus says He is Lord or a single verse where Jesus says He is Savior.
She knows of none.
Denial of the deity of Jesus
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
She knows of none.
Sure, you can find verses where others call Him Lord, God, and Savior.
But can you show just one where Jesus ever says He is Lord and Savior?
Still waiting.
There are tons of testimony about Jesus being the Lamb of God and Savior of the world.
Here is another one:
John Testifies About Jesus
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”
Here is another one:
John Testifies About Jesus
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”
Ok, I figured your sleazy attack, Tam.
No, Jesus Himself did not say "I am the Lord and Savior or the world.".
But it is not going to change the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior of the world, even though He did not say it.
All His faithful disciples confirmed it.
You see, this is nothing but despicable game you are playing.
Suit yourself trying to find something else you think you can corner me.
You need to get a life, friend.
No, Jesus Himself did not say "I am the Lord and Savior or the world.".
But it is not going to change the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior of the world, even though He did not say it.
All His faithful disciples confirmed it.
You see, this is nothing but despicable game you are playing.
Suit yourself trying to find something else you think you can corner me.
You need to get a life, friend.
And, with respect to LA, he also mentioned John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 KJV.
The first aspect to examine here was who Jesus was specifically talking to in John 8:24 KJV. Jesus was speaking to those plotting His crucifixion: John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, even more explicitly illuminated in John 11: 47 KJV, John 11:48 KJV, John 11:49 KJV, John 11:50 KJV, John 11:51 KJV, John 11:52 KJV, John 11:53 KJV. They weren’t Israelites as deduced in John 8:33 KJV… the Israelites were in bondage in Egypt. Jesus corroborated His instigating detractors were “Abraham’s seed” (John 8:37 KJV). Abraham sired progeny via Hagar, Sarah, Keturah and concubines. So, that leaves room for a little clarity, other than His instigating detractors weren’t Gentile. Just food for thought though, Moses didn’t seem to think “Abraham’s seed” via his wife Keturah were Abraham’s children, they were “the children of Keturah” (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4). Coincidentally, Jesus didn’t seem to think “Abraham’s seed” plotting His crucifixion in John 8:37 KJV were “Abraham’s children” (John 8:39 KJV). I don’t gather John the Baptizer did either in Luke 3:2, 7, 8, 9; nor Paul hinting at this ancestral delineation in Romans 9:6, 7.
But, sure Freelight, Jesus was entirely referring to His divine origin in John 8:24 KJV, I beg your patience. In John 8:12 KJV, Jesus said He is the Light of the world (the second was John 9:1 KJV, John 9:2 KJV, John 9:3 KJV, John 9:4 KJV, John 9:5 KJV). In John 9, Jesus clearly referred to Himself as being sent, “I must work the works of him that sent me…” Do take note that was the only time, during Jesus’ numerous healing miracles, that Jesus’ disciples asked Him the genetically heritable affliction question (John 9:1 KJV, John 9:2 KJV). Jesus was a genetic healer by scant clinical evidence gleaned in Scripture through individual case studies absent genetic tests, CT’s, MRI’s, lab work, etc. Even Peter and John healed a lame man afflicted “from his mother’s womb” (Acts 3:2 KJV).
Jesus was accused of being God in v. 33 of John 10:31 KJV, John 10:32 KJV, John 10:33 KJV, John 10:34 KJV, John 10:35 KJV, John 10:36 KJV with particular interest in John 10:37 KJV, John 10:38 KJV. Jesus denied being God, but, undoubtedly Jesus’ healing miracles were Divine, and the genetic aspect seems to have escaped the multitudes. Jesus was no ordinary physician at our local Urgent Care. The woman with an issue of blood for twelve years achieved menarche and was bleeding to death. She was a fulminant female hemophiliac who would have died not having reproduced selecting out female carriers, vastly by and large, to genetically survive as we find today. Leprosy is caused by mycobacterium leprae, and only presents as leprosy in those genetically predisposed (or with other immune problems, possibly). Hence: Leprosy is a genetic affliction. So much for Jesus being a Divine healer, but I could go on affirming Jesus was performing genetic miracles. Then, back to Roberts verse John 8:24 KJV.
Jesus said He was the Light of the world in John 8:12 KJV. His aforementioned circumcised non-Israelite detractors instigating His crucifixion challenged Jesus’ paternity in the next verse: John 8:13 KJV. Jesus said He and His Father were “two witnesses” to His divine origin in John 8:17 KJV, John 8:18 KJV, and those somewhat anonymous instigators denied Jesus’ paternal origin again in John 8:19 KJV. Cutting to the chase Freelight, witnesses testify. Jesus’ testimony, corroborating His divine origin, is found a few verses along in John 8:38 KJV. What specifically and succinctly did Jesus SEE WITH His Father? God’s testimony to Jesus’ divine origin is found in John 8:40 KJV. What specifically and succinctly did Jesus HEAR FROM God that even Abraham didn’t hear? From those two testimonies alone, I’ve no difficulty extrapolating Jesus and His Father were not at the same place, all the time. Hence: two distinct entities appreciating Keypurr’s position.
Continuing in John, some folks believed Jesus in John 8:30 KJV, and Jesus told those who “believed him” that IF they continued in his word (keep listening, real time), His believers would THEN be Jesus’ “disciples indeed” (John 8:31 KJV) learning the “truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32 KJV). I might add that freedom is from any doubt whatsoever, that Jesus was of Divine origin. Said truth to Jesus’ divine origin is captured in those two testimonies that followed: John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV.
But, the bottom line is that I’ve asked these two questions of a number of folk, including a handful of MDiv/PhD theologians in a renowned university, and only two have recognized the dilemma, but were unable to explicitly and succinctly answer those two questions. However, just because those two questions haven’t been answered, doesn’t mean they are not veiled in Scripture (OT).
So, another way of asking Bright Raven’s question: How can believers call themselves disciples, and not know the explicit and succinct details of those two testimonies that corroborated Jesus’ divine origin (John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV)? Those two testimonies corroborated Jesus’ divine origin (John 8:12 KJV) as perceived and challenged in John 8:13 KJV, and John 8:19 KJV by those circumcised, non-Israelite (John 8:33 KJV) Pharisee priests (John 11:47 KJV, John 11:50 KJV, John 11:53 KJV), who infiltrated the Israelite synagogues, that were most definitely not ancestrally intact Israelite Jews (Revelation 2:9, 3:9).
Sure, Freelight. Jesus was referring to His divine origin in Robert's verse, John 8:24 KJV in the context of that dialogue between John 8:12 KJV, and John 8:47 KJV. Only in John 8:30 KJV, John 8:31 KJV, John 8:32 did Jesus’ attention momentarily divert to His believers. For the balance of that dialogue, Jesus was speaking directly to those non-Israelites seeking His crucifixion whose ancestral origin also seems to escape this esteemed Christian audience, along with the explicit and succinct revelation of those two Divine testimonies (John 8:18 KJV) to Jesus’ divine origin (John 8:12 KJV, John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV).
Peace and blessings…
kayaker
He was asking them a question: "Why do you call me good? Only God is good."
Only God is good. Only God.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
technology and cosmetics.....
technology and cosmetics.....
Hi kayaker,
Some interesting thoughts on 'genetic healing' there, which could be a thread-subject of its own...but I'll just touch on a few of your points shortly. While Roberts quote of John 8:24 relates within a 'context' of Jesus claiming to be the light of the world, the issue of people 'dying in their sins' is only because they reject Jesus testimony of himself and of his Father, not necessarily the 'belief' that he is somehow deity. Of course this is all relative, being a scenario granted within the writers precontextualized view, since these things can only be within the 'con-text' provided. The writers of John certainly paint Jesus as being more than just a common man, but how far we take his relationship with God is a matter of discretion and proper relational-context. Remember, John ever maintains the Sonship of Jesus under the primacy of the Father as 'God'. The Father is ever greater...because he is 'God' (priorly and properly), the First Source and Center, the Father of all.
Also note that it is only in the gospel of John, a later developed work, that Jesus pre-existence or divinity is really expounded upon, as such is pretty sparse in the earlier synoptics. So, you only have the redacted work of John to rely on, a work whose earliest commentators were gnostics
- in any case,...the text does have Jesus admitting to having a prior fellowship or intimacy with God the Father, but the phrase "you will die in your sins" can be 'spun' in various ways as far as terms go, and this still does not necessarily PROVE Jesus is deity. That his words indicate that he is of 'God' is granted. (its still relative). The writers obviously had a prefigured terminology and meaning invested in these various terms, writing such to serve their discourse. - Remember, this book was written for a particular religious community of a 'conformed faith' interest, a pre-scribed theology.
As a final bonus,
As far as how much of Jesus is 'God' and/or 'Man', again a toss-up and probably the biggest debate within the doctrinal history of Christainity, with 'orthodox' and 'heterodox' contendors in the trenches. Hence Unitarian and Trinitarian views still continuing to this day. As I browse and survey this century old contention,...I take a higher resolve by including both views and dimensions inbetween, since much is but a difference of technology and cosmetics.
technology and cosmetics.....
Hi kayaker,
Some interesting thoughts on 'genetic healing' there, which could be a thread-subject of its own...but I'll just touch on a few of your points shortly. While Roberts quote of John 8:24 relates within a 'context' of Jesus claiming to be the light of the world, the issue of people 'dying in their sins' is only because they reject Jesus testimony of himself and of his Father, not necessarily the 'belief' that he is somehow deity. Of course this is all relative, being a scenario granted within the writers precontextualized view, since these things can only be within the 'con-text' provided. The writers of John certainly paint Jesus as being more than just a common man, but how far we take his relationship with God is a matter of discretion and proper relational-context. Remember, John ever maintains the Sonship of Jesus under the primacy of the Father as 'God'. The Father is ever greater...because he is 'God' (priorly and properly), the First Source and Center, the Father of all.
Also note that it is only in the gospel of John, a later developed work, that Jesus pre-existence or divinity is really expounded upon, as such is pretty sparse in the earlier synoptics. So, you only have the redacted work of John to rely on, a work whose earliest commentators were gnostics
- in any case,...the text does have Jesus admitting to having a prior fellowship or intimacy with God the Father, but the phrase "you will die in your sins" can be 'spun' in various ways as far as terms go, and this still does not necessarily PROVE Jesus is deity. That his words indicate that he is of 'God' is granted. (its still relative). The writers obviously had a prefigured terminology and meaning invested in these various terms, writing such to serve their discourse. - Remember, this book was written for a particular religious community of a 'conformed faith' interest, a pre-scribed theology. As a final bonus,
As far as how much of Jesus is 'God' and/or 'Man', again a toss-up and probably the biggest debate within the doctrinal history of Christainity, with 'orthodox' and 'heterodox' contendors in the trenches. Hence Unitarian and Trinitarian views still continuing to this day. As I browse and survey this century old contention,...I take a higher resolve by including both views and dimensions inbetween, since much is but a difference of technology and cosmetics.
It is useless to argue about this subject with them. It has been this way since they created triun God.
There is not even single word in the Bible that says the Father and the Son and the HS make one God.
Don't you have anything else to do besides bother your fellow posters? Why
not go out and treat yourself to a new hat? Search the world over. Take your
time. Visit far away country's. In short, take all the time we need, to find a
nice new hat.
not go out and treat yourself to a new hat? Search the world over. Take your
time. Visit far away country's. In short, take all the time we need, to find a
nice new hat.
Her hat band is too tight and cutting off the circulation to her mind.
And yet you have failed to show even one verse where Jesus says he is savior.
Why can't you find just one, Meshak?
Meshak keeps talking, but cannot show even one verse where Jesus says He is savior.
Why so hostile, Meshak? It's not a sleazy attack.
It was a simple and direct question about the Lord Jesus Christ.
In other words, I was right all along ---you cannot find a single verse where Jesus says He is savior.
No one has disputed that Jesus is savior.
So hostile.
It's not a despicable game, Meshak. It's about the Lord Jesus Christ.
More hostility.
You are the one that said you could find a verse where Jesus said He was savior.
But at least now you might realize that you believe something about Jesus even though you cannot find a single verse where Jesus taught anyone that He was savior. No verse where Jesus tell anyone to call Him savior. No verse where Jesus tells anyone to believe He is savior.
In other words, you believe Jesus is savior, even though you cannot show a single verse where Jesus says He is.
Remember that, Meshak. Remember that you believe Jesus did not have to say He is savior in order for you to believe He is savior.
My life is in the Lord Jesus Christ.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Excellent job, Tam. :first:
Good post
glorydaz
Well-known member
Right you are.
It's inescapable.
But as scripture says, there will be some that would rather worship the created as Lord, God, and Savior; instead of the Creator.