"Demonic possession," or mental illness?

Totton Linnet

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I have to admit to something that grieves me above measure....it is one of those things I dare not think about.

When I read of folks being held under restraint in padded cells, who if they were not so would be running nude in the cemetaries cutting themselves I think they are demon possessed, they are described as such in the gospels....I have seen them manifest their presence, I have seen them cast out and the people set free...wonderfully set free.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
I have to admit to something that grieves me above measure....it is one of those things I dare not think about.

When I read of folks being held under restraint in padded cells, who if they were not so would be running nude in the cemetaries cutting themselves I think they are demon possessed, they are described as such in the gospels....I have seen them manifest their presence, I have seen them cast out and the people set free...wonderfully set free.


Cutting themselves, as in self-harm? There are a number of reasons why people self-harm, Tots, and the cause is psychological, not demonic. People experiencing psychosis could very well have been considered possessed in the past, when there was no scientific biological explanation for their behavior.
 

Angel4Truth

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I'll answer as I think best. The excerpts I posted give a good explanation of Jewish interpretation. If you'd like to offer an example of literal Jewish interpretation I'd be interested in seeing it.

Did you by any chance read the entire encyclopedia entry at the link?

Yes, i read it. Im sorry the words of Christ are not good enough and you would rather take the word of those who deny Him, what He said was clearly literal and you havent adressed that. Ill take His word, over the word of those who deny Him.

Jesus was jewish, and He said: "Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh". Luke 11.30 The men repented because they believed and saw that Jonah was literally saved by the hand of God, and they believed Jonah when he told them that God would destroy them for their wrongs.

From the throne of the king down to the least of the common folk the hundreds of thousands of Ninevites took Jonah in all seriousness, repented in great earnest, and desperately sought to remove the imminent judgment from their city. Jonah in no way endeavoured to persuade them of the truth of his short, simple warning - he just proclaimed it as a matter of fact. He also gave them no assurance that God would spare the city if they repented. It was, on the contrary, his wish and expectation that the city would be destroyed in terms of God's warning whether the Ninevites took him seriously or not.

Why then did the whole city repent and do so in the hope that God would not cause them to perish? (Jonah 3.9). Jewish historians were fascinated by this story and concluded that the only possible explanation was that the Ninevites knew that Jonah had been swallowed up by a fish as God's judgment on his disobedience, and also knew that while he would normally die in such circumstances, God in mercy kept him alive and delivered him from the stomach of the fish on the third day. This alone could explain the seriousness with which they listened to Jonah and their hope of mercy if they repented.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jonah_historicity.htm
 

Totton Linnet

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Cutting themselves, as in self-harm? There are a number of reasons why people self-harm, Tots, and the cause is psychological, not demonic. People experiencing psychosis could very well have been considered possessed in the past, when there was no scientific biological explanation for their behavior.

When it's demon you know it's demon.

There is indirect demon activity, what you call psychosis, and there is demon possession. If you ever become involved in missionary work in Africa you'll soon learn about demons.

But I say in the west whether demon possessed or just mentally ill, we lock them away.

Of COURSE I would not spect a doctor to call it demon, any more than they would call cancer a spirit of infirmity.

There were physicians in Jesu's day, the woman with the issue of blood spent all her money for years on many of them but got no better but rather grew worse.

What a happy day when she got in contact with Jesus.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Yes, i read it. Im sorry the words of Christ are not good enough and you would rather take the word of those who deny Him, what He said was clearly literal and you havent adressed that. Ill take His word, over the word of those who deny Him.

Jesus was jewish, and He said: "Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh". Luke 11.30 The men repented because they believed and saw that Jonah was literally saved by the hand of God, and they believed Jonah when he told them that God would destroy them for their wrongs.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jonah_historicity.htm


You're discounting the very people whose ancient text Christianity has adopted.

From my link, again:

The book does not bear the least evidence of having been written by the prophet or even during his time; and its age must be gathered from different indications. It has long since been held that it is one of the latest books of the Hebrew canon. This is proved in the first place by the language, as considered lexically, grammatically, and stylistically (comp. on this point the commentaries, and books like S. R. Driver's "Introduction"). Only Esther, Chronicles, and Daniel are of later date. Again, the way in which Nineveh is referred to shows that the city had long since vanished from the face of the earth and had faded into legend (comp. iii. 3). The King of Nineveh, also (iii. 6), could have been referred to only in a late myth; and the legendary atmosphere of the whole story, from beginning to end, is in accord with the length of time that had elapsed since the events recounted took place. This becomes evident both in the episode of the fish which swallows a man and then casts him up alive after three days, and in that of the plant which in one night grows high enough to overshadow Jonah. These things might, it is true, be considered as divine miracles; but such an explanation can not be offered for the three days' time that it takes to pass through Nineveh (iii. 3), nor for the fasting, sackcloth, and penitent cries of the animals (iii. 7 et seq.), much less for the conception that an Israelitish prophet could preach penitence to the city of Nineveh, and that the king and the citizens would listen to him. Everything about the story is, and was intended to be, miraculous and legendary.

Your link isn't from a Jewish source, from what I can tell. That's what I was asking for.
 

aikido7

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Banned
Anyone remember the poor evangelical lady who drowned her three children in the bathtub because God spoke to her and convinced her that her kids were demons?

What would you do if you were convinced the Lord was speaking to you and asked you to carry out a [strange] task for Him?

Makes me think of the story of Isaac being tied up and coming mighty close to being set on fire and sacrificed. Of course in that case, God was playing a sort of cosmic game and revealed the "joke" at the last minute.
 

Nazaroo

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You're discounting the very people whose ancient text Christianity has adopted.

From my link, again:
The book does not bear the least evidence of having been written by the prophet or even during his time; and its age must be gathered from different indications. It has long since been held that it is one of the latest books of the Hebrew canon. This is proved in the first place by the language, as considered lexically, grammatically, and stylistically (comp. on this point the commentaries, and books like S. R. Driver's "Introduction"). Only Esther, Chronicles, and Daniel are of later date. Again, the way in which Nineveh is referred to shows that the city had long since vanished from the face of the earth and had faded into legend (comp. iii. 3). The King of Nineveh, also (iii. 6), could have been referred to only in a late myth; and the legendary atmosphere of the whole story, from beginning to end, is in accord with the length of time that had elapsed since the events recounted took place. This becomes evident both in the episode of the fish which swallows a man and then casts him up alive after three days, and in that of the plant which in one night grows high enough to overshadow Jonah. These things might, it is true, be considered as divine miracles; but such an explanation can not be offered for the three days' time that it takes to pass through Nineveh (iii. 3), nor for the fasting, sackcloth, and penitent cries of the animals (iii. 7 et seq.), much less for the conception that an Israelitish prophet could preach penitence to the city of Nineveh, and that the king and the citizens would listen to him. Everything about the story is, and was intended to be, miraculous and legendary.

Your link isn't from a Jewish source, from what I can tell. That's what I was asking for.


Sadly out of date.

S.R. Driver (circa 1900) was discredited a long time ago. His knowledge of the
alleged development and evolution of Hebrew and Aramaic has been shown
to be a joke, and a typical 19th century cloistered German fantasy.

Driver dated Daniel for instance at 167 BCE +- 4 years.
This was merely interpreting the 'evidence' according to the ancient theory
of Porphyry of Tyre (c. 300 AD) a skeptic who claimed that Daniel was
a pious forgery from the time of the Maccabees. The Dead Sea Scrolls
discoveries at Qumran have since proved that Daniel was accepted
as a famous prophet in the 2nd century BCE and the book already had a
long textual history, suggesting a date at least a century earlier on the
textual evidence alone.
All of Driver's 'careful scholarship' could not overcome the actual technical
ignorance
of language usage and socioeconomic history of the region
for the critical Babylonian and Persian periods in the 19th century.

Current linguistic assessments place the Hebrew of Esther, Chronicles
and Daniel as roughly contemporary, and circa 500 BCE, which is
precisely what should be expected of documents from the period claimed.

The almost hysterical anti-Semitism of 19th century German scholarship
and the 'higher critical schools' has all but died in the flurry of archaeological
and manuscript discoveries between the 1880s and the 1960s.

For the same reasons, S.R. Driver's analysis of Jonah is worthless.

The introduction of "penitence" into the discussion is typical Roman Catholic Newspeak.
Its an exclusively Roman Catholic theological fiction.
You are absolutely right that no Israelite prophet, real or fictional, would ever
'preach penitence' to anyone.
 

Nazaroo

New member
Makes me think of the story of Isaac being tied up and coming mighty close to being set on fire and sacrificed. Of course in that case, God was playing a sort of cosmic game and revealed the "joke" at the last minute.

Assuming Abraham was indeed a desert bedouin of limited education and
limited intelligence, its equally possible that he suffered sun-stroke or
dietary sub-standard mental capacity. Thus he could have had marginal
epileptic or schizophrenic symptoms like hearing voices.

Perhaps equally likely, local 'priests' (e.g. Balaam or Magi) instructed him
to kill his son, and he ignorantly carried out the orders,
but was saved from their evil and his own stupidity by a miraculous intervention,
either of an 'angel' or perhaps even more simply another priest with
actual scruples and a moral compass. This being (human or divine)
talked Abraham out of killing his son, which by any reasonable standard
would be a lot more serious than a mere 'prank'.

There is no need to ascribe to God the start of the story,
except in the sense that God allowed the 'prank' to continue so far,
not to test Abraham, but to test the evil intent of the pranksters.

God gets the glory for how the story turned out, which is reasonable,
since God and His angel act as rescuers and obstructers of evil.

A good comprehension of the story does require one to read between the lines
just a little deeper than your first pass.
 

Totton Linnet

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Silver Subscriber
Abraham had the promise that through Isaac his descendants would be as the stars of heaven....that's why he trusted God.
 

Tyrathca

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When it's demon you know it's demon.
Who knows and how? You? Does the person know by psychic 6th sense? How is disagreement on demon possession sorted out?
There is indirect demon activity, what you call psychosis, and there is demon possession. If you ever become involved in missionary work in Africa you'll soon learn about demons.
So psychosis is demon possession and the devil hates/loves Africans?.... Is it just psychosis which is demon possession or are other types demon possession too?
But I say in the west whether demon possessed or just mentally ill, we lock them away.
Are you advocating for us NOT to treat people with manageable psychiatric conditions?
Of COURSE I would not spect a doctor to call it demon, any more than they would call cancer a spirit of infirmity.
Hang on now you're also saying cancer is actually a "spiritual" condition and not related to genetic mutations?

Are you sure YOU'RE not the one with psychosis?
 

Ben Masada

New member
Assuming Abraham was indeed a desert bedouin of limited education and limited intelligence, its equally possible that he suffered sun-stroke or dietary sub-standard mental capacity. Thus he could have had marginal epileptic or schizophrenic symptoms like hearing voices.

Perhaps equally likely, local 'priests' (e.g. Balaam or Magi) instructed him to kill his son, and he ignorantly carried out the orders, but was saved from their evil and his own stupidity by a miraculous intervention, either of an 'angel' or perhaps even more simply another priest with actual scruples and a moral compass. This being (human or divine) talked Abraham out of killing his son, which by any reasonable standard would be a lot more serious than a mere 'prank'.

There is no need to ascribe to God the start of the story, except in the sense that God allowed the 'prank' to continue so far,
not to test Abraham, but to test the evil intent of the pranksters.

God gets the glory for how the story turned out, which is reasonable, since God and His angel act as rescuers and obstructers of evil.

A good comprehension of the story does require one to read between the lines just a little deeper than your first pass.

The Lord's Catch-22

According to a certain midrash reported by Thomas Mann in his book "Joseph and his Brothers," after a while that Abraham had arrived in Canaan, from his country and folks in Ur of the Chaldeans, he was deeply impressed about the deep love with which the Canaanites would love their gods as to offer their firstborn son in a burn sacrifice. Abraham would go frustrate to think that he could not express his love for Elohim in such a dramatic way.

As Abraham would try to chew that paradox in his mind, he fell asleep and had a dream. Elohim would identify Himself thus: I am Molech, bull-king of the baalites and command you to bring your firstborn son Isaac and offer him in a burn sacrifice to Me. As Abraham set about to do so, the Lord said, "How dare you! Am I Molech bull-king of the baalites? I expected you to know much better. What I have commanded, I did not command so that you would do it, but that you might learn that you should not do it; because it is nothing but an abomination in My sight, instead; and don't confuse the practices of the Gentiles with the People you are to sire. Behold a ram; offer it instead.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Anyone remember the poor evangelical lady who drowned her three children in the bathtub because God spoke to her and convinced her that her kids were demons?

What would you do if you were convinced the Lord was speaking to you and asked you to carry out a [strange] task for Him?

Makes me think of the story of Isaac being tied up and coming mighty close to being set on fire and sacrificed. Of course in that case, God was playing a sort of cosmic game and revealed the "joke" at the last minute.

I would first check it up thoroughly if it was a Catch-22. You know, a command supposed to be obeyed by doing exactly the opposite. And then, I would make sure I was not having a dream.
 

Nazaroo

New member
The Lord's Catch-22

According to a certain midrash reported by Thomas Mann in his book "Joseph and his Brothers," after a while that Abraham had arrived in Canaan, from his country and folks in Ur of the Chaldeans, he was deeply impressed about the deep love with which the Canaanites would love their gods as to offer their firstborn son in a burn sacrifice. Abraham would go frustrate to think that he could not express his love for Elohim in such a dramatic way.

As Abraham would try to chew that paradox in his mind, he fell asleep and had a dream. Elohim would identify Himself thus: I am Molech, bull-king of the baalites and command you to bring your firstborn son Isaac and offer him in a burn sacrifice to Me. As Abraham set about to do so, the Lord said, "How dare you! Am I Molech bull-king of the baalites? I expected you to know much better. What I have commanded, I did not command so that you would do it, but that you might learn that you should not do it; because it is nothing but an abomination in My sight, instead; and don't confuse the practices of the Gentiles with the People you are to sire. Behold a ram; offer it instead.

This seems of course like an attempt to reconcile what we know about G-d
with a difficult historical text.

But somehow, that seems like just what we ought to do,
as part of Torah study.

Not a catch-22, but rich in irony
 

Ben Masada

New member
The reason orthodox theologians believe the Jonah story to be true is because Jesus refers to it.

"as Jonah was in the belly of the whale...etc"

I cannot accept the proposition that the Master was speaking to a popular understanding of His day.

Jesus was much more intelligent than to be the author of that so-called prophecy of Mat. 12:40. The truth is that the Hellenist who wrote that gospel never even saw Jesus and much less that Jesus would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish. The point was that the time was for Christianity and, every pious forgery was an order.
 

Totton Linnet

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Silver Subscriber
Who knows and how? You? Does the person know by psychic 6th sense? How is disagreement on demon possession sorted out?
So psychosis is demon possession and the devil hates/loves Africans?.... Is it just psychosis which is demon possession or are other types demon possession too?
Are you advocating for us NOT to treat people with manageable psychiatric conditions?
Hang on now you're also saying cancer is actually a "spiritual" condition and not related to genetic mutations?

Are you sure YOU'RE not the one with psychosis?

Yes ME...

All physical conditions of any sort whatsoever have a spiritual cause

...got it now?
 

Ben Masada

New member
This seems of course like an attempt to reconcile what we know about G-d
with a difficult historical text.

But somehow, that seems like just what we ought to do,
as part of Torah study.

Not a catch-22, but rich in irony

Well my friend, that's what a midrash is.
 
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