"Demonic possession," or mental illness?

[annabenedetti]

I recently read the book Brain on Fire, Susannah Cahalan's account of her "month of madness" as she battled the disease attacking her brain called anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis. After her recovery she wrote about her ordeal, including the misdiagnosis which delayed her treatment and the support of her loved ones who fought for her when she couldn't fight for herself. It's an amazing, inspiring story and she's an amazing, inspiring writer.

Here's an overview from npr, where I first learned about her story, and which impelled me to buy the book:

'Brain On Fire' Details An Out-Of-Mind Experience


Okay. With that background, something near the end of the book caught my attention. On page 222:

Evil. To the untrained eye, anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis can certainly appear malevolent. Afflicted sons and daughters suddenly became possessed, demonic, like creatures out of our most appalling nightmares. Imagine a young girl who, after several days of full-bodied convulsions that sent her flying into the air and off her bed – and after speaking in a strange, deep baritone, contorted her body and crab-walked down the staircase, hissing like a snake and spewing blood.

This chilling scene is, of course, from the unedited version of the blockbuster film The Exorcist, and though fictionalized, it depicts many of the same behaviors that children suffering from anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis do… In 2009, a thirteen-year-old girl from Tennessee displayed a “range of emotions and symptoms that varied by the hour, at time mirroring schizophrenia, and at other times, autism or cerebral palsy.” She lashed out violently and would bite her tongue and mouth. She once insisted on crab-walking across the hospital floor. She also spoke in a bizarre, Cajun-inflected accent, according to the Chattanooga Times Free Press, which detailed her experience with anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis and subsequent recovery...
​

I'd always accepted without question the idea of demonic possession. It was a part of my religious upbringing, it was what I was taught, it was both scriptural and doctrinal, the Church had exorcists to deal with the problem. It's the explanation for the unexplainable. If someone heard voices, it must have been the devil, it couldn't have been hypnagogia or schizophrenia, for example.

How many people have been exorcised, feared, scorned, shunned, or worse for a supposed spiritual ailment when it was an unrecognized, undiagnosed physical ailment?

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

 

[StanJ]

I recently read the book Brain on Fire, Susannah Cahalan's account of her "month of madness" as she battled the disease attacking her brain called anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis. After her recovery she wrote about her ordeal, including the misdiagnosis which delayed her treatment and the support of her loved ones who fought for her when she couldn't fight for herself. It's an amazing, inspiring story and she's an amazing, inspiring writer.

Here's an overview from npr, where I first learned about her story, and which impelled me to buy the book:

'Brain On Fire' Details An Out-Of-Mind Experience


Okay. With that background, something near the end of the book caught my attention. On page 222:

Evil. To the untrained eye, anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis can certainly appear malevolent. Afflicted sons and daughters suddenly became possessed, demonic, like creatures out of our most appalling nightmares. Imagine a young girl who, after several days of full-bodied convulsions that sent her flying into the air and off her bed – and after speaking in a strange, deep baritone, contorted her body and crab-walked down the staircase, hissing like a snake and spewing blood.

This chilling scene is, of course, from the unedited version of the blockbuster film The Exorcist, and though fictionalized, it depicts many of the same behaviors that children suffering from anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis do… In 2009, a thirteen-year-old girl from Tennessee displayed a “range of emotions and symptoms that varied by the hour, at time mirroring schizophrenia, and at other times, autism or cerebral palsy.” She lashed out violently and would bite her tongue and mouth. She once insisted on crab-walking across the hospital floor. She also spoke in a bizarre, Cajun-inflected accent, according to the Chattanooga Times Free Press, which detailed her experience with anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis and subsequent recovery...
​

I'd always accepted without question the idea of demonic possession. It was a part of my religious upbringing, it was what I was taught, it was both scriptural and doctrinal, the Church had exorcists to deal with the problem. It's the explanation for the unexplainable. If someone heard voices, it must have been the devil, it couldn't have been hypnagogia or schizophrenia, for example.

How many people have been exorcised, feared, scorned, shunned, or worse for a supposed spiritual ailment when it was an unrecognized, undiagnosed physical ailment?

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

Luke 8 is just ONE example of the fact that demons do possess people. I can verify from personal experience with demoniacs, that it is true.
Don't EVER under estimate the enemy!

 

[Hedshaker]

Of course there is no evidence, beyond anecdotes and camp fire tales, for "demonic possession?". The actual evidence points to mental illness and, IMO, those crackpots who engages in exorcisms on individuals with obvious mental health issues should be prosecuted under the law for gross abuse.

That some people still buy such nonsense in this day-and-age is nothing short of scary, as is withholding genuine medical treatment because of a belief in some pie-in-the-sky spiritual healing.

One should always seek the attention of a qualified health care professional. Exorcists, psychic and spiritual healers are dangerous and do more harm than good, IMO.

Church warning on risks of exorcism

10 Deadly Exorcisms

The idea that people are possessed with demons or evil spirits is one the most widely held religious and spiritual beliefs in the history of the world. But because of advancements in science, demonic possession and exorcism are often thought of as archaic. The Vatican released its guidelines for exorcism in 1614, and in the past 400 years we have learned a lot about how the brain works. For example, mental illnesses like schizophrenia can closely resemble signs of possession.

Sadly, some people still take part in this dangerous and medieval ritual. In most cases, the people who are killed aren’t even the ones who are suffering from mental illness; they’re usually the ones performing the exorcism. Other times, there are genuinely sick individuals who become victims to delusional religious zealots.

 

[Nick M]

Well, the opening poster is demon possessed. So there is that. On the other hand a bunch of posters on TOL seem to have mental illness. Which just might be the marijuana talking.

 

[Selaphiel]

The idea of demonic possession is part of the cosmology of the world in which Christianity, and other religions arose. Not much different from their idea that the divine realm was literally above them, the highest point in the three tiered cosmos of sheol, earth and heaven.

The demonic seems to have been their way of understanding mental illness and certain other medical conditions. To continue with this when we know that they are really medically explainable is irresponsible and it is downright immoral. It can be extremely dangerous, it can end in death for the one being exorcised or it can amplify and strengthen the mental illness. If there are any real demons, I certainly have not experienced them.

That said, I do believe that the spiritual and religious can play a role in helping people who struggle with such issues. However, they should NEVER do this at the expense of medical and psychiatric treatment and should not engage in the quasi-magic treatments of ritualistic exorcisms. They should simply be there for the one suffers from it and have fellowship with them and welcome them into the loving communion of the church (or the equivalent in other traditions). That may aid in their recovery, as long as they also get their required medical treatments.

 

[annabenedetti]

Luke 8 is just ONE example of the fact that demons do possess people. I can verify from personal experience with demoniacs, that it is true.
Don't EVER under estimate the enemy!

How many demoniacs have you encountered?

 

[annabenedetti]

The idea of demonic possession is part of the cosmology of the world in which Christianity, and other religions arose. Not much different from their idea that the divine realm was literally above them, the highest point in the three tiered cosmos of sheol, earth and heaven.

The demonic seems to have been their way of understanding mental illness and certain other medical conditions.

To continue with this when we know that they are really medically explainable is irresponsible and it is downright immoral. It can be extremely dangerous, it can end in death for the one being exorcised or it can amplify and strengthen the mental illness. If there are any real demons, I certainly have not experienced them.

Thanks, Sela, that's what I'm beginning to understand.

That said, I do believe that the spiritual and religious can play a role in helping people who struggle with such issues. However, they should NEVER do this at the expense of medical and psychiatric treatment and should not engage in the quasi-magic treatments of ritualistic exorcisms. They should simply be there for the one suffers from it and have fellowship with them and welcome them into the loving communion of the church (or the equivalent in other traditions). That may aid in their recovery, as long as they also get their required medical treatments.

You have a genuine compassion for others that's both reassuring and refreshing.

I'd be interested in what you'd say to those who would reference a literal, historical interpretation of scriptural accounts of possession.

 

[Danoh]

...I'd be interested in what you'd say to those who would reference a literal, historical interpretation of scriptural accounts of possession.

That was before "that which is perfect is come" 1 Cor. 13:10.

That was back when a portal between this world and the spirit world was still open.

When that portal was still open, back when "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost," 2 Peter 1: 20-21; 1 Cor. 2: 12-13.

Until when that which is perfect came - this here - 2 Timothy 3:

16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And by then, both good and evil had set in motion each's doctrines or teachings.

Evil's side of that equation having been - 2 Corinthians 11's:

14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

With the completed Canon, said portal between both worlds was temporarily closed, until that day of 2 Thessalonians 2's "lying wonders" 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9.

This thread reminds me of an account related by a therapist famous for his great difference in approach, and its resulting rapid "cures."

A family hired him in hopes he might help their son, who had been living in a mental ward the past decade or so for his delusion that he was the Christ.

He meets with the man, asks him several times if he is sure he is the Christ. The man asserts he is. The therapist announces he'll be right back.

But just before he leaves, he pulls out a tape measure and asks the man to stretch out his arms from side to side, and measures them. He then again asks the man if he is sure he is the Christ.

A short while later, he returns with two long boards, a hammer and some long, spiked nails.

As he is putting that all together, he looks up at the man, smiles a sinister smile and asks him, "You're sure you're the Christ; right?"

The man replies that he is.

"Then you know why I'm here..." the therapist relates, with a cunning smile, as he finishes off the giant cross he has been putting together.

"No! No!" exclaims the man; snapping out of his delusion - "I'm not the Christ, I'm not the Christ; where's my wallet; I'll show you!"

 

[chrysostom]

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

nice to see you back
but
sorry to see you are still into the dark stuff

many believe you are what you eat
but
could it also be true
that
you are what you read?

do you ever wonder about that?

 

[annabenedetti]

This thread reminds me of an account related by a therapist famous for his great difference in approach, and its resulting rapid "cures."

A family hired him in hopes he might help their son, who had been living in a mental ward the past decade or so for his delusion that he was the Christ.

He meets with the man, asks him several times if he is sure he is the Christ. The man asserts he is. The therapist announces he'll be right back.

But just before he leaves, he pulls out a tape measure and asks the man to stretch out his arms from side to side, and measures them. He then again asks the man if he is sure he is the Christ.

A short while later, he returns with two long boards, a hammer and some long, spiked nails.

As he is putting that all together, he looks up at the man, smiles a sinister smile and asks him, "You're sure you're the Christ; right?"

The man replies that he is.

"Then you know why I'm here..." the therapist relates, with a cunning smile, as he finishes off the giant cross he has been putting together.

"No! No!" exclaims the man; snapping out of his delusion - "I'm not the Christ, I'm not the Christ; where's my wallet; I'll show you!"

That's a bizarrely bad joke.

 

[annabenedetti]

nice to see you back
but
sorry to see you are still into the dark stuff

Thank you.

Have you ever doubted what you believe, chrys? Do you consider doubt to be dark stuff?

(And in typing that, I've just remembered your thread about the movie Doubt.)

many believe you are what you eat
but
could it also be true
that
you are what you read?

do you ever wonder about that?

Yes, I do wonder about that.

 

[chrysostom]

Thank you.

Have you ever doubted what you believe, chrys? Do you consider doubt to be dark stuff?

(And in typing that, I've just remembered your thread about the movie Doubt.)



Yes, I do wonder about that.

the movie was great
but
there was also a book called doubt
one of the best I have ever read

I don't think I have ever really doubted
I have only doubted myself
doubted my ability to make sense of all this
never doubted that it did make sense
and
I think that is what the nuns taught us
it does make sense
you just have to find it

 

[annabenedetti]

the movie was great
but
there was also a book called doubt
one of the best I have ever read

I know you've read a lot of books. I'll take a look at it.

I don't think I have ever really doubted
I have only doubted myself
doubted my ability to make sense of all this
never doubted that it did make sense
and
I think that is what the nuns taught us
it does make sense
you just have to find it

Do you think it has anything to do with being raised Catholic, growing up in a Catholic culture where you didn't doubt your parents or your priests or your nuns because you were raised to be obedient, follow the rules, accept authority without question? That saying you only doubt yourself would make sense in that context but not out of it?

That's a serious question and I hope you think about it before you answer.

As for wondering about us being what we read, that could go both ways, I'm hoping you understood that's what I was saying.

I've read plenty over the years that affirmed and confirmed what I'd been taught, and read little that challenged what I'd been taught. I'd been raised to be that way, though I didn't understand that for such a long time. I'd been taught that thesis/antithesis/synthesis was a bad thing; it was capitulation.

When we control (or someone controls for us) access to other ideas or points of view out of fear that we might be confronted with doubt, don't you see that as being problematic?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

..disease attacking her brain called anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis.

...

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

If the behavior is treatable by ordinary medical methods, then it was not demonic possession in the first place.

We have warrant from Scripture that demonic possession is possible in God's creatures that are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. To say that demonic possession is not possible is to deny the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible.

AMR

 

[Nick M]

Have you ever doubted what you believe, chrys?

I didn't know that is possible. If you believe, then there is no doubt. He could doubt things told to him. I have. Things didn't add up. There was doubt.

 

[Danoh]

That's a bizarrely bad joke.

Slow down a bit, remove the blindness that has you an RC, and reread that post - it is a true account, not "a bizarrely bad joke."

 

[aikido7]

I recently read the book Brain on Fire, Susannah Cahalan's account of her "month of madness" as she battled the disease attacking her brain called anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis. After her recovery she wrote about her ordeal, including the misdiagnosis which delayed her treatment and the support of her loved ones who fought for her when she couldn't fight for herself. It's an amazing, inspiring story and she's an amazing, inspiring writer.

Here's an overview from npr, where I first learned about her story, and which impelled me to buy the book:

'Brain On Fire' Details An Out-Of-Mind Experience


Okay. With that background, something near the end of the book caught my attention. On page 222:

Evil. To the untrained eye, anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis can certainly appear malevolent. Afflicted sons and daughters suddenly became possessed, demonic, like creatures out of our most appalling nightmares. Imagine a young girl who, after several days of full-bodied convulsions that sent her flying into the air and off her bed – and after speaking in a strange, deep baritone, contorted her body and crab-walked down the staircase, hissing like a snake and spewing blood.

This chilling scene is, of course, from the unedited version of the blockbuster film The Exorcist, and though fictionalized, it depicts many of the same behaviors that children suffering from anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis do… In 2009, a thirteen-year-old girl from Tennessee displayed a “range of emotions and symptoms that varied by the hour, at time mirroring schizophrenia, and at other times, autism or cerebral palsy.” She lashed out violently and would bite her tongue and mouth. She once insisted on crab-walking across the hospital floor. She also spoke in a bizarre, Cajun-inflected accent, according to the Chattanooga Times Free Press, which detailed her experience with anti-NMDA-receptor autoimmune encephalitis and subsequent recovery...
​

I'd always accepted without question the idea of demonic possession. It was a part of my religious upbringing, it was what I was taught, it was both scriptural and doctrinal, the Church had exorcists to deal with the problem. It's the explanation for the unexplainable. If someone heard voices, it must have been the devil, it couldn't have been hypnagogia or schizophrenia, for example.

How many people have been exorcised, feared, scorned, shunned, or worse for a supposed spiritual ailment when it was an unrecognized, undiagnosed physical ailment?

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

As you said, demonic possession is the "explanation for the unexplainable."

 

[kmoney]

The idea of demonic possession is part of the cosmology of the world in which Christianity, and other religions arose. Not much different from their idea that the divine realm was literally above them, the highest point in the three tiered cosmos of sheol, earth and heaven.

The demonic seems to have been their way of understanding mental illness and certain other medical conditions. To continue with this when we know that they are really medically explainable is irresponsible and it is downright immoral. It can be extremely dangerous, it can end in death for the one being exorcised or it can amplify and strengthen the mental illness. If there are any real demons, I certainly have not experienced them.

That said, I do believe that the spiritual and religious can play a role in helping people who struggle with such issues. However, they should NEVER do this at the expense of medical and psychiatric treatment and should not engage in the quasi-magic treatments of ritualistic exorcisms. They should simply be there for the one suffers from it and have fellowship with them and welcome them into the loving communion of the church (or the equivalent in other traditions). That may aid in their recovery, as long as they also get their required medical treatments.

I agree with much of this. Just like parents (or anyone) shouldn't skip medical treatments for physical ailments in favor of only praying for healing, they shouldn't skip medical treatments and diagnosis for mental or emotional ailments as well. However, I'm wary of writing off demon possession completely, based on scriptural testimony. Do you think angels and demons in general are simply parts of the biblical cosmology that shouldn't be taken seriously?

 

[chrysostom]

Do you think it has anything to do with being raised Catholic, growing up in a Catholic culture where you didn't doubt your parents or your priests or your nuns because you were raised to be obedient, follow the rules, accept authority without question? That saying you only doubt yourself would make sense in that context but not out of it?

That's a serious question and I hope you think about it before you answer.

I doubted everyone
and
everything except the rules and authority without a question
I spent four years in the military
and
I know how important that is
but
they never asked me to kill anyone
I was able to put myself in a position where they wouldn't
in my mind I challenged, questioned, and doubted everything
but
I preferred order to chaos
and
will continue to do so

yes I was raised to be obedient
and
so was everyone around me
and
I could see what happened when you weren't

I didn't like that part

 

[George Affleck]

What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

Please notice the responses you receive to this thread from unbelievers designed to encourage you to accept this explanation and consider that source. Also notice the responses you receive from true Bible believers and consider that source as well, if you are indeed looking for a Biblical answer.

All acute or chronic dis-ease (lack of physical perfection) is the result of sin having entered into God's perfect creation and ultimately results in physical death. As a result of 6000 years of mistakes piled on mistakes in the genome, we now have health pressures that have steadily increased and will continue to increase as time goes on. There is no one who is not subject to this law of eventual death.

As a result of the disobedience of the head of our race (Adam), our Creator God has pulled back just enough of His protective and sustaining power to allow us to peek into a universe entirely ruled by a Satanic reign of chaos. Not taking these things seriously usually results in an escalation of Satanic symptoms. Fleeing the devil results in an increase of God's protecting power.

Thus, a common cold, cancer, and demonic possession originate from the same source. The difference lies in the danger posed to the individual. It is Biblical to understand that demonic possession, although curable, is much more dangerous as it poses an immediate threat to the soul - that one is closer to the "event horizon" of hell.

The Father, in elevating His Son to the highest position of authority, has provided a permanent and everlasting solution to Paradise Lost but not everyone will embrace the Son and be cured of sin. Why? Disobedience.