Creation vs. Evolution

[noguru]

Dear Alwight,

I realize it is what I wish to think and know. For those who be wise, they might want to check into it also. To my best Buddy, Al!

Michael

:angel: :angel:

:cheers:

So because you wish to think and know certain things, whether or not they are delusions, the rest of the world should follow your lead?

 

[MichaelCadry]

Just saying it doesn't make it so Michael.

There is no contemporary evidence for a historical Jesus outside of the Bible. Even self respecting theologians accept that fact. You have to take it on faith.

The amount of books sold says nothing of its truth value. And no, the Bible does not show me how to live and I'm satisfied I have moral values as good, or better, than most Christians. In fact, the last place I would look for moral values is the Bible.

If Jesus comes through the clouds by November I'll not only admit you were right but I'll also eat my hat, and I have several hats so you can choose which one. If, however, the event doesn't occur by November 2015 will you then drop this nonsense once and for all? Or will you alter the time line? Time will tell.

Cheers

Dear Hedshaker,

Naw, you don't have to eat any hat. Please remember that. So when the Lord comes before the end of November, don't think you have to eat a hat. I will most likely be gone before He returns, so I will not be around to watch you eat a hat or pick one for you. You take good care buddy, and don't be a stranger. I love it when you visit here!!

Nice To Have The Pleasure Of Your Company!!

Michael

:angel: :angel:

atrol:

 

[MichaelCadry]

I rather think Michael that followers of any great or notable people only conclude that mainly retrospectively.
I also think that it's highly unlikely that four of Jesus' followers would have kept verbatim notes in Aramaic or Hebrew never mind Greek.
Fishermen back then were almost always illiterate in any language, and almost certainly had no writing skills at all. The only Hebrew people who would have been able read and write would have been scribes and those with a privileged education.

Dear Alwight,

Matthew was a tax collector, not a fisherman. Peter was one of the fisherman. Matthew is one of the Four Gospels. I can assure you that, when the Holy Ghost visited these men, all ability to remember ALL that Jesus did and said to them was given them.

Jesus only became thought of as unusually special through later retellings and writings of an earlier account probably by non-eyewitnesses.
If someone today writes a book or screenplay based in an earlier time and place, who wants it to be read as something special, then it isn't really lying to spice it up a bit, or to exaggerate a few things here and there, it's just what people do, story tellers are pretty much expected to do it.
The only hard evidence of any character from the NT is "the Pilate Stone" which seems to refer to an actual Prefect Pontius Pilate existing at the time. I doubt that the gospels would be entirely made up Michael, just spruced up perhaps, with a few special or amazing additions to keep people interested.

Al, you believe that Pontius Pilate was there because history says it, but you don't believe that Jesus was there, because history doesn't mention Him except in the Bible. See how lopsided things are?!!

He Offers A Love That Lasts!

Michael

:angel: :angel:

:cheers:

 

[MichaelCadry]

I'd like to see one of them get through an entire day without using the name of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

everready

Dear everready,

Of course they could probably do it. They are nonbelievers.

God's Best For You!

Michael

:angel:

:cheers:

 

[MichaelCadry]

No Michael, the Bible is the only source. Repeating yourself won't change that. But if you know of any extra-biblical contemporary sources then let's see them. But remember contemporary.... from at the time. After the time will not do.



You cannot use the Bible to prove the the Bible Michael. That would be circular reasoning. And Michael, please don't treat me like a fool. I do not believe in your God so how can a none existent being not want me to believe in something? You have your beliefs and I have mine. If you tell me I am wrong then I can tell you you are wrong, but where does that get us?

Dear Hedshaker,

I am just saying that this is the first resurrection. There will be a second death, so you will still have a chance to make it to heaven then. See Rev. 20:5.

Michelangelo Buonarroti Biography

Plato

Edit to add: these are not like with like since there are no supernatural claims about Plato and Michelangelo.



Most people once believed the Sun orbited the the Earth but they were wrong. The fallacy your are using is called Argumentum ad populum

It's a logical fallacy.

From the link:

 

[MichaelCadry]

So because you wish to think and know certain things, whether or not they are delusions, the rest of the world should follow your lead?

Dear noguru,

I noticed you managed to take that definitely out of context. It doesn't matter. People can read. You used to be my friend. What happened with you?

Michael

:angel:

:cheers:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Please Michael, can tell me about all the delusions you believe I have?

Dear noguru,

Well, the major delusion that I know you have is that you think I am delusional, and I know that is completely wrong. Plus, you think that everything you say makes you truthful.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

I am fairly adamant Michael that the OT at least was nothing at all to do with the apostles of Jesus.
I think that the actual authors of the four gospels at least remain anonymous and in all probability are not their eponymous apostles.

I can accept that someone called Paul did write a large part of the NT but where does that get us? :idunno:

Dear Alwight,

Hi Buddy!! This post almost got by me. Got a lot of posters, brother. Anyway, the OT does talk about Jesus coming to be born and die on Earth, most notably in the book of Isaiah. Now, in the NT, the actual authors of the four gospels are their owners. Matthew was a tax collector, not a fisherman. Paul wrote letters also. He could read and write. That's for the latter part of the New Testament. You do know, Al, that the Holy Ghost visited the disciples, just like Jesus said, and He caused all to be brought into remembrance for the disciples. So surely, they could write what they had experienced during their time with Jesus. I know it sounds unlikely, but it happened. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I've been bogged down for a couple of days or so now.

Many Blessings Come Your Way!!

Michael

:angel: :angel:

:cheers:

 

[alwight]

Dear Alwight,

Matthew was a tax collector, not a fisherman. Peter was one of the fisherman. Matthew is one of the Four Gospels. I can assure you that, when the Holy Ghost visited these men, all ability to remember ALL that Jesus did and said to them was given them.

I'm trying to explain why I personally am not convinced in the slightest that the apostles themselves authored the four Gospels Michael.
There are plenty of other reasons to doubt their verbatim accuracy if you compare each gospel against the others since there are just too many contradictions.
What you seem to be telling me here is that basically simple men magically acquired all the skills needed simply to explain your beliefs. It seems highly unlikely to me anyway that such a group of itinerant men would even bother to consider carrying writing equipment, let alone be constantly taking careful notes.

Al, you believe that Pontius Pilate was there because history says it, but you don't believe that Jesus was there, because history doesn't mention Him except in the Bible. See how lopsided things are?!!

He Offers A Love That Lasts!

Michael

:angel: :angel:

:cheers:

I think the existence of Pilate is at least rather more likely because of the hard evidence I indicated that supports written accounts. I can accept that someone called Jesus was around at the time, but I'm not about to accept that anything miraculous ever happened without some rather good solid evidence, and certainly not on hearsay and the imaginative constructions of enthusiasts.

 

[alwight]

Dear Alwight,

Hi Buddy!! This post almost got by me. Got a lot of posters, brother. Anyway, the OT does talk about Jesus coming to be born and die on Earth, most notably in the book of Isaiah. Now, in the NT, the actual authors of the four gospels are their owners. Matthew was a tax collector, not a fisherman. Paul wrote letters also. He could read and write. That's for the latter part of the New Testament. You do know, Al, that the Holy Ghost visited the disciples, just like Jesus said, and He caused all to be brought into remembrance for the disciples. So surely, they could write what they had experienced during their time with Jesus. I know it sounds unlikely, but it happened. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I've been bogged down for a couple of days or so now.

Many Blessings Come Your Way!!

Michael

:angel: :angel:

:cheers:

No Michael you probably just like to think that Isaiah meant Jesus. The Jesus of the NT is not specifically mentioned in the OT.
See my earlier response here:

I was aware that Mahershalalhashbaz, a son of Isaiah, is the longest name in the Bible, but not that Jesus actually was his "Messiah" other than being called the "Messiah" by later enthusiasts.

"Emmanuel" means "God with us" but I'm not convinced that it refers to Jesus or if later evangelists have not force-fitted Jesus into that role. lain:

I don't believe that there is any reason to conclude that your Holy Ghost did anything, it's rather like explaining the miraculous with a supernatural, it just isn't going to wash with me. Sorry.

 

[Hedshaker]

Dear Hedshaker,

I am just saying that this is the first resurrection. There will be a second death, so you will still have a chance to make it to heaven then. See Rev. 20:5.

Relax with the prothletising Michael. No one is going to hell or heaven. There's no evidence for either so they remain an ancient superstition.

Old superstitions don't touch me. I'm scam proof, remember?

 

[MichaelCadry]

No Michael you probably just like to think that Isaiah meant Jesus. The Jesus of the NT is not specifically mentioned in the OT.
See my earlier response here:

I don't believe that there is any reason to conclude that your Holy Ghost did anything, it's rather like explaining the miraculous with a supernatural, it just isn't going to wash with me. Sorry.

Dear Alwight,

Please see Isaiah 9:7. It is about Jesus. Thanks, Al.

:cheers:

:angel:

:up:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Relax with the prothletising Michael. No one is going to hell or heaven. There's no evidence for either so they remain an ancient superstition.

Old superstitions don't touch me. I'm scam proof, remember?

Dear Hedshaker,

I'm not trying to proselytize at all. I'm just talking about what I've learned and engaging in a conversation with you. You don't have to switch your beliefs just because I talk about the Bible and God, and Jesus, and His disciples/apostles. Hedshaker, I always enjoy your posts, tbh (to be honest). Of course, there are souls going to Heaven and those who are going to Hell. I will touch on that matter again soon. I do know you are scam proof. It's what I like about you, besides many other reasons. Well, I've got to get going, or this would be longer. Much Love Coming Your Way, Hedshaker!!

Michael

:bang:

:angel: :angel:

:up:

 

[alwight]

Dear Alwight,

Please see Isaiah 9:7. It is about Jesus. Thanks, Al.

:cheers:

:angel:

:up:

I think you probably mean this verse Michael:
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

Some Christians may like to think that this refers to Jesus but I see no particular reason to. I'm not aware that Jesus is otherwise known by any of the titles here.

 

[Hedshaker]

Of course, there are souls going to Heaven and those who are going to Hell.

Preach it if you must Michael but I don't believe a word of it, and you saying it is true doesn't change that one bit. In fact, not only is there not a shred of evidence for it, but it's a horrible belief. The very idea that a loving God would send a good person to place of infinite excruciating torture for the simple finite crime of not believing, is.... well, the only word that comes to mind, evil!

So, despite there being not a shred of evidence, even if there were such a thing as a soul that carried on after death and could be tortured for ever just for none belief, I would want no part of it, or him. I would be off to explore the universe and let those who buy such nonsense go to hell or heaven.

I've been a free spirit in life so that wouldn't change even it there is a life after death. I would say, up yours mate, see ya!

 

[MichaelCadry]

I think you probably mean this verse Michael:
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

Some Christians may like to think that this refers to Jesus but I see no particular reason to. I'm not aware that Jesus is otherwise known by any of the titles here.

Dear Alwight,

Hey Buddy!! Yes, you found one verse. If you ask ANY or ALL Christians, they will tell you that it is about Jesus Christ. Ask noguru and The Barbarian also. They are both Christians / Catholics. There are other verses too. Thanks Alwight!! It's been a long day today and I am beat, so I'll chat with you more soon. Am looking forward to it!!

Cheerio Mate!!

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Preach it if you must Michael but I don't believe a word of it, and you saying it is true doesn't change that one bit. In fact, not only is there not a shred of evidence for it, but it's a horrible belief. The very idea that a loving God would send a good person to place of infinite excruciating torture for the simple finite crime of not believing, is.... well, the only word that comes to mind, evil!

So, despite there being not a shred of evidence, even if there were such a thing as a soul that carried on after death and could be tortured for ever just for none belief, I would want no part of it, or him. I would be off to explore the universe and let those who buy such nonsense go to hell or heaven.

I've been a free spirit in life so that wouldn't change even it there is a life after death. I would say, up yours mate, see ya!

Dear Hedshaker,

It is not your decision to make. It all rests on what Jesus thinks of you. Now, you would need to sin worse than just not believing in Him. So don't be troubled. You probably won't get to go to heaven this time around. But there is a second death (second chance). See Rev. 20:13. That means that you will sleep for 1,000 years and then be born again and be given another chance at life to correct the mistakes you made in the previous life. See Rev. 20:5,6. Now, you shouldn't say, 'up yours,' considering you don't know the whole situation. No big whoop to me. I am very loving and extremely forgiving. Little you say would bother me after all I have been through. Hedshaker, don't be so up in arms about the situation. I have prayed for you, whether you want me to or not. I've also prayed for the atheists on this TOL site. Of course, Alwight too! I usually pray for you all on TOL twice every week on my knees at my bedside. You people are decent, loving, caring people, so I am happy to have you for friends. You'll notice it is written, "And 'death' and 'hell' will give up all who are in them, and they shall all be judged according to the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." That means even certain people who have been in hell will still make it to heaven. Their crimes are nothing compared to the crimes others do during these days and in the days to come. Once Jesus returns, you will believe in Him. And since you treat people quite well, you will be just fine, Buddy! Now, there are those like Hitler and Mussolini who will be going to the Lake of Fire. Their sins were too grievous.

Hope to hear from you soon and hear what you think and feel.

Michael

:cheers:

:angel: :angel:

 

[alwight]

Dear Alwight,

Hey Bud!! Yes, you found one verse. If you ask ANY or ALL Christians, they will tell you that it is about Jesus Christ. Ask noguru and The Barbarian also. They are both Christians. There are other verses too. Thanks Alwight!! Will chat with you more soon.

Cheerio Mate!!

Michael

I think that you are rather too keen to see things that just aren't there Michael. lain:

 

[Hedshaker]

Dear Hedshaker,

It is not your decision to make. It all rests on what Jesus thinks of you. Now, you would need to sin worse than just not believing in Him. So don't be troubled. You probably won't get to go to heaven this time around. But there is a second death (second chance). See Rev. 20:13. That means that you will sleep for 1,000 years and then be born again and be given another chance at life to correct the mistakes you made in the previous life. See Rev. 20:5,6. Now, you shouldn't say, 'up yours,' considering you don't know the whole situation. No big whoop to me. I am very loving and extremely forgiving. Little you say would bother me after all I have been through. Hedshaker, don't be so up in arms about the situation. I have prayed for you, whether you want me to or not. I've also prayed for the atheists on this TOL site. Of course, Alwight too! I usually pray for you all on TOL twice every week on my knees at my bedside. You people are decent, loving, caring people, so I am happy to have you for friends. You'll notice it is written, "And 'death' and 'hell' will give up all who are in them, and they shall all be judged according to the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." That means even certain people who have been in hell will still make it to heaven. Their crimes are nothing compared to the crimes others do during these days and in the days to come. Once Jesus returns, you will believe in Him. And since you treat people quite well, you will be just fine, Buddy! Now, there are those like Hitler and Mussolini who will be going to the Lake of Fire. Their sins were too grievous.

opinion

Michael, what part of I don't believe it do you not understand? Please process the words in bold slowly, take your time, let them sink in..... now try to imagine if everything you believe isn't really true. I know that may be hard for you but try for a few seconds, just this once.............. now this is my world. There is no heaven, hell, gods, angels, demons, paranormal, occult, magic, creationism, Armageddon, second coming myths, spirit world, psychics, etc etc etc, it's all made up and it's all absolutely daft. ALL OF IT Pray all you want, it doesn't do anything.

So you see Michael, although you probably mean well, preaching this stuff and posting bible verses at none believers actually gets quite tedious. You refuse to look at evidence against your beliefs and look into the real origins of Christianity, so I suggest we just agree to disagree.

Hope to hear from you soon and hear what you think and feel.

I think and feel you should save the witnessing for someone who might appreciate it.

Thanks.

 

[MichaelCadry]

I think that you are rather too keen to see things that just aren't there Michael. lain:

Dear Alwight,

I am really too keen to see things that are there, mate. Al, what do you make of millions of Christians, Catholics, etc. believing in the Holy Bible, the bestselling book of all time, and yet some miniscule amount of unbelievers don't believe it and they get angry if anyone brings it up to them? Don't kill the messenger. I'm not trying to steer you the wrong way. Why would I do that to anyone, much less you, whom I care about. There are tons of different kinds of books/Bibles/Korans/Jehovah's Witness books/Mormon books, etc. that declare that there truly is a God and a Son named Jesus. So I can't help but believe, because I believed beforehand, and the Lord visited me, among other experiences. Despite all of the hell I've gone through for others, I am one of the most blessed and happy, having Jesus as my older Brother and Savior. You nor Hedshaker have to believe the things I say. I'm not twisting anyone's arm. I just say what I believe and you all say what you believe. There is no malice that I have, at all. I want you both to be friends of mine. We don't have to agree on any religion, or we can agree to disagree. I care very much about You and Hedshaker and hope you are happy and joyful in your lives.

Much Love Coming Your Way!!

Michael


:cheers:

:angel: :angel: