Creation vs. Evolution

[patrick jane]

because He loves you, Davis. "This is real love--not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins." 1Jn 4:10

1 John 4:11 KJV -

 

[Jose Fly]

You asked about other miracles. Who is counting? From the perspective of a hamster, we perform multiple miracles just driving to work each day. We think of it as a single task and think nothing of the individual actions. Triggering this flood was a miracle, and it changed the earth environment permanently. Whether the tool of this triggering was a series of volcanoes, a comet strike, or the Divine Hammer of God the effect is the same and it still requires god-like intervention.

Thanks for posting that. I appreciate the admission that this whole flood thing is based in Hebrew folklore and requires miracles to work. Not many creationists are this honest. :thumb:

 

[Rosenritter]

Rosenritter: It is difficult to know where to start. Are you the reincarnation of Duane Gish?
You ask if Jose has taken any engineering courses and then make reference to strength of materials, have you taken any such courses?
If so, have you done any calculations on the effect of extra water on tectonic plates? If so, please provide them. How much water, how did you determine the strength of the "plates" etc.
Let's start there.
But as an aside, in an earlier post did you not ask whether the scientists who have calculated the age of the universe we actually there to measure the age? Yet you seem able to tell us what happened during the Flood, were you there?

It was a while ago, but I did take strengths of materials at Colorado School of Mines. Was I there during Noah's flood? I wasn't, but Noah was and his record went into Genesis. Does Noah speak of tectonic plates? No, but he does record water coming from above and from below. The effects of the water and the answer of "where did it go" is the logical deduction from observable data.

I haven't heard better alternative theories from your camp yet as to how marine oysters got themselves stranded on mountaintops. I'll take a moment to moment to put in a plug for scientific method. Doesn't it involve first collecting available data and making observations, and then forming a theory or multiple theories?

The next step would be to test the theory. One way is to recreate the whole thing all over again. Another way is to discover more data and see if it continues to fit the pattern.

 

[Jose Fly]

I haven't heard better alternative theories from your camp yet as to how marine oysters got themselves stranded on mountaintops.

Before anyone gets too deep into that, could you name the specific formation you're referring to?

 

[hoghead1]

I'm not sure where you are going with your comment about the marine oysters on the mountains. If you are trying o use that as some sort of proof for a worldwide flood, that will backfire. Had violent flood waters thrown up them up there, there would also be all sorts of other debris found. It would look like a big mess. Tat's what floods do. The fact that they are there all nice, neat, and tidy suggest the ocean once ran that high and then slowly evaporated up. Evolution at work.

 

[Rosenritter]

Thanks for posting that. I appreciate the admission that this whole flood thing is based in Hebrew folklore and requires miracles to work. Not many creationists are this honest. :thumb:

That's not exactly what I said Jose. First, the Hebrew record is based on the event, rather than the event being created from the Hebrew record. Supporting evidence can be found by comparing the Hebrew record with observable data.

The reference to the "Divine Hammer of God" simply means that it is possible that mechanisms were employed that we may not be able to understand (or even relate to.) If I were to talk to someone about splitting the atom 200 years ago, it would seem like far fetched fantasy. So I wouldn't speak in terms of atoms but I would speak differently.

God (by definition) is plenty capable of doing what he wants without being limited to methods that you or I currently understand. If I were to say that I (personally) did such a thing with an undefined fantastic method, you would be right to say it was absurd and unscientific. God has no such limitations: he has the right to call you absurd and unscientific.

Do I admit that the miracles described in the Bible take miracles to work? Uhm.... doesn't everyone? A machine doesn't start without someone "flipping the switch" and no matter how ordinary and mundane the actual workings of that machine are, in this analogy "flipping the switch" remains a miracle. I am not holding that the Hebrew record is simply a recording of things that happened in a world without God. Maybe that's the clarification you wanted?

 

[Rosenritter]

I'm not sure where you are going with your comment about the marine oysters on the mountains. If you are trying o use that as some sort of proof for a worldwide flood, that will backfire. Had violent flood waters thrown up them up there, there would also be all sorts of other debris found. It would look like a big mess. Tat's what floods do. The fact that they are there all nice, neat, and tidy suggest the ocean once ran that high and then slowly evaporated up. Evolution at work.

Hoghead, your theory as to how oysters quickly died and then wound up on top of the mountains may merit consideration (of which it is not my point to evaluate here) but how in the world would your theory (even if proved true or testified by God Himself) be any sort of evidence of evolution?

The subject was evidence of a worldwide flood. Dead oysters on top of high mountains don't show that any creature came to life from bare rock or changed to another creature.

 

[Jose Fly]

Supporting evidence can be found by comparing the Hebrew record with observable data.

Ok then, where is your observable data that indicates there was no water cycle and the oceans were much smaller just a few thousand years ago?

Do I admit that the miracles described in the Bible take miracles to work? Uhm.... doesn't everyone?

Nope. Many creationists insist the flood story can be explained in entirely naturalistic terms. At least you, like Baumgardner, admit that supernatural intervention is required.

I am not holding that the Hebrew record is simply a recording of things that happened in a world without God. Maybe that's the clarification you wanted?

Once supernatural intervention by God is invoked you have stepped outside the arena of science and into the arena of religion. Not that that's a bad thing, but the two have very different standards for establishing "truth", and as such it's important not to confuse them.

 

[DavisBJ]

… You can't even make a proper case for an old moon or planets by the popular old universe theories.... At least there are all these inconvenient fact evidences that have to be ignored.

You say there are anomalies that we can’t explain? Really? Rather than disputing that, perhaps I should send you a rather technical book I have, nearly 400 pages long, titled “Unsolved Problems in Astrophysics.” Unless you have a copy yourself, then it probably has oodles of sticky questions in astrophysics that you likely have never heard of.

The difference between most creationists and most scientists is that creationists seize on things we don’t understand as evidence that scientists are badly misled in fundamental aspects of their work. University Professors take those same things that we don’t understand and assign them as thesis subjects for grad students. Very very rarely do the answers to those things we don’t understand fundamentally overturn what we do know.

But if you think you know of some paradigm changing questions that science is turning a blind eye to, then bring them on.

 

[DavisBJ]

I asked:

Revealing His majesty and power to whom? …

6 responded:

To us.

Precisely, to us. Us who in just the past century finally figured out how to look out farther into the universe and see how big it really is. Not to those poor schmucks who lived 200 years ago, or 500 years ago, or 1000 or 2000 years ago. They were just too technologically stupid for God to care whether He revealed His majesty and power to them. All that scriptural stuff about a huge universe was just blather to them, cause in their ignorance they stood outside and oohed and aahed as they looked up at the sky, not realizing they were seeing less than a billionth of what we see now.

'… these stars … He calls them all by name …' iS.40:26

If He has given names to all of the hundreds of billions of stars, then He really needs to get His priorities straight and spend more time getting things cleaned up here on earth and less time reciting the names of thermonuclear balls that are so far away we can’t even see their light with our telescopes.

Adam and Eve could see the stars.

How far away are the stars that we (or mud-man and rib-wife) can see with our naked eye? It’s about the same as a high-rise apartment dweller in New York City stepping out his front door into the hallway, and gazing in wonder at the 2 apartment doors on the other side of that hallway. No clue that there are dozens of other doors if you could see down the next hallway, and don’t even think about going down a floor, or outside the building, or across the street, or down a block, or to the next borough, of the next county, or across a state line, or another country. Naaah, for God, those two doors across the hallway are all He is gonna let anyone see who lives in the few thousand years before us.

… Future generations will still see and know more than us about creation.

Then maybe what you think you understand about what the scripture says will be found to as off-base as the clueless ancients were in looking up in awe at what they thought was “the heavens”.

Assuming you are drowning and unable to swim. Your mom jumps in and wants to save you. You don't have to dump the responsibility on her.

Drowning? That is just about the least applicable analogy I can imagine for the life that I try to live. Kindness, compassion, honor, concern for neighbors – that is drowning? I kinda thought I was doing the good Samaritan thing.

… He loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.

I got a neighbor. He came up to me and said he doesn’t agree with some things I do. So he gave me a choice. Option 1 is that he is going to beat the living stuffins out of me until I am just a quivering bloody stump. Or I can say I really like his son, and then he is going to have the living beejeebers beat out of his own son. Great logic.

 

[patrick jane]

I got a neighbor. He came up to me and said he doesn’t agree with some things I do. So he gave me a choice. Option 1 is that he is going to beat the living stuffins out of me until I am just a quivering bloody stump. Or I can say I really like his son, and then he is going to have the living beejeebers beat out of his own son. Great logic.

Tell us more about this story

 

[Silent Hunter]

I know plenty about the subject of my thread and your are mistaken to say it's less than your dog's.

Well, you know whatever agrees with your bias that you've looked up on the internet and pasted here. That you don't understand any of it is obvious to anyone not sharing your nonsense.

How childish.

... said the guy who's called me a liar and "satan" more than a few times without evidence.

I've known 6days and Stripe quite long actually. Way longer than you for sure! Years compared to 2 months, like you.

I've posted under this alias since 2009 and other aliases years before that. Should we add this to the list of things Michael Cadry knows nothing about?

6days and Stripe are saints and they will be in Heaven for their strong belief in God!

Compared to 6days and yellow stain, Hitler was a saint. I understand Hitler had a strong belief in the christian deity and asked for forgiveness of his many transgressions moments before he pulled the trigger, is he already in heaven? Godwin's Law anyone?

I've been a pen pal with him longer than I have with you, by years more. I have also got his picture. He doesn't ALWAYS agree with what I say. He says things that are true. You are the one who says things that are not true.

The veracity of "truth" is determined by personal association and a picture? What have I said about evolution that isn't true?

You certainly did not find the posts before me, especially on your phone, and I know every post is time-stamped. It is just that I made some changes hours after I initially wrote the post. I made my first initial post before you did. The time just changes after each edit you make. You are just a deceiver, like Satan!! You certainly don't inherit the deceit from God. It's one or the other. And no, I'm not bipolar and I'm not ranting here. I am just responding to your words and sometimes I get upset! Like I said, Jesus did get upset too and overturned the tables in the house of God.

You're ranting and skipping from thought to rash thought. It's a classic bipolar symptom, look it up. If I copied your post, explain why mine are formatted to each separate post. And you called me a liar, again.

No, there's no written rule about posting here. There's no need for it. You waited almost 3 years to finally post here?

Yes, so? I follow many threads without commenting. You act as if I've committed a crime.

Also, my information does not come from who or what agrees with my beliefs. And no, there is no confirmation bias here.

Have you EVER posted anything you didn't agree with as confirmation of what you believe? If not, that would be a first.

And I don't often complain about my life at all. Ask others. I do say that I am very joyful.

I've read about your cancer woes. How happy were you to get the diagnosis?

I was just fine with my cancer. Yippee!! It's gone now. God just puts me through things that other everyday normal people encounter. I am not Jesus, who never got sick supposedly, and I cannot heal people or walk on water. I have a lot of faith, but walking on water would take many days of prayer and fasting indeed. Jesus fasted 40 days. I can't do it. And no, I'm not a nut. You just believe I may be because I'm privy to things that you know nothing about!

Cancer was your deities way of testing you and being cured was a miracle, right? That's called confirmation bias. Perhaps you don't see the humor in the bolded portion of your quote above but my christian wife got a real belly laugh out of it. Yeah, I'm aware of the things you claim to have the inside track on, snow storms and the second coming. Pull the other one.

I also do not judge things on their popularity. It's just a fact that many, many more people believe in God and the Bible than the things you believe. You are just acutely outnumbered and in your own la-la land, not even believing in your own Creator.

Among scientists evolution is more popular than godidit because of the extreme amount of evidence in multiple scientific disciplines supporting it. It's a miracle isn't scientific but it is popular among fundamentalist christians. Who wins the popularity contest for you?

Just wait til you face Him. And you will! Also, from what I've read in the Bible, there are seven Spirits of God. I know of two, that's all.

Eyes and horns are spirits? Weird. Given any other context what would you say of anyone believing such nonsense?

And no, I'm not paranoid much. I just know that looking down on the bottom of the pages, it says who is also on the thread while I am. It's that simple.

Well, you did comment that someone was taking notes on your last post. Not actually knowing someones intent and theorizing that person is out to get you seems paranoid to me.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[6days]

Precisely, to us.(6days said the universe reveals the majesty of God to us) Us who in just the past century finally figured out how to look out farther into the universe and see how big it really is. Not to those poor schmucks who lived 200 years ago, or 500 years ago, or 1000 or 2000 years ago. They were just too technologically stupid for God to care whether He revealed His majesty and power to them.

Your 'argument' is becoming illogical. We don't need to have complete knowledge of the complexity of the cell, or the vastness of the universe to see the majesty of our Creator.

All that scriptural stuff about a huge universe was just blather to them, cause in their ignorance they stood outside and oohed and aahed as they looked up at the sky, not realizing they were seeing less than a billionth of what we see now.

Not that it matters, but God did tell them that the stars are as uncountable as are the sand of the sea shore.

Then maybe what you think you understand about what the scripture says will be found to as off-base as the clueless ancients were in looking up in awe at what they thought was “the heavens”.

2,000 years ago evolutionists of that era (Epicureans) made similar arguments. As Christians, we can have certainty that the Word of God is true yesterday, today and forever. Is. 40:8

I got a neighbor. He came up to me and said he doesn’t agree with some things I do. So he gave me a choice. Option 1 is that he is going to beat the living stuffins out of me until I am just a quivering bloody stump. Or I can say I really like his son, and then he is going to have the living beejeebers beat out of his own son. Great logic.

Call the cops. What right does your neighbor have over you? Did He create you?

If we use your analogy, the neighbor is the one who created you. But, because of bad lifestyle choices your heart is about to stop. Your neighbor informs you that due to love, his son has already volunteered his life and heart to you. Doctors are ready to do the transplant. They won't force you. The father is urging you to accept life and the gift of his son. You can reject the offer Davis.... Or you can accept the gift freely offered. "what makes us think we can escape if we ignore this great salvation that was first announced by the Lord Jesus himself and then delivered to us by those who heard him speak?" Heb. 2:3

 

[Lon]

Drowning? That is just about the least applicable analogy I can imagine for the life that I try to live. Kindness, compassion, honor, concern for neighbors – that is drowning? I kinda thought I was doing the good Samaritan thing.

Yeah, but it ain't changing the world :sigh: (iow, ineffectual-amateur). The question is, "if you could do better, would you?" The answer, for you, is "No. This is good enough." :think:

I got a neighbor. He came up to me and said he doesn’t agree with some things I do. So he gave me a choice. Option 1 is that he is going to beat the living stuffins out of me until I am just a quivering bloody stump. Or I can say I really like his son, and then he is going to have the living beejeebers beat out of his own son. Great logic.

It is stuff like this that makes me think you never could have been a Christian a day in your life. You entirely misunderstand the Cross, now and then. A slam? Well, yes, but not to jump on your intellectual prowess, just point out you've greatly missed the mark and point. Greatly.

 

[6days]

Compared to 6days... Hitler was a saint. I understand Hitler had a strong belief in the christian deity

That is debatable....but what is not debatable is that the holocaust was largely inspired by Hitlers belief, and the Nazi belief in evolutionism. British evolutionary anthropologist,Sir Arthur Keith said "Hitler is an uncompromising evolutionist, and we must seek for an evolutionary explanation if we are to understand his actions". He also said that "The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution."

 

[6days]

Yeah, but it ain't changing the world :sigh:

But, even if Davis was changing the world similar to mother Theresa, it would not change his eternal destiny. Good works do not make us Holy. We are still unrighteousness sinners and need Jesus as our Savior.

 

[keypurr]

Dear Jukia,

I know my God is a male because He Himself said He created MAN in HIS IMAGE. Go figure. Sounds like you are Stuart's sibling.

Michael

God is a spirit, neither male or female.

He is called Father so we can relate to him. Same with his spirit son. Early translations refure to the spirit son as an IT not a he/him.

 

[6days]

Early translations refure to the spirit son as an IT not a he/him.

Are you interested in accurate translations? Or, or you interested in translations That can be used to validate your false belief system. ((Which translation calls "The Spirit Son" an it.... Specifically, mention a verse that uses your phrase of "spirit son")

 

[DavisBJ]

SH replying to Cadry:

No you don't, else you'd do as I suggest. Your understanding of the subject of "your" thread is less than my dog's. …

Dear SH,

Thanks much for assuming my former position of being Cadry’s target. It’s not something I would wish on anyone, but someone apparently has to feed Michael’s ongoing need to be illogical and threaten damnation. Although Michael thinks he swings a big club, you will notice it is actually just a big soft ostrich feather. Glad to know your dog is on our side too, just like the fencepost that I named Cadry behind my house.

 

[DavisBJ]

Yeah, but it ain't changing the world :sigh: (iow, ineffectual-amateur). The question is, "if you could do better, would you?" The answer, for you, is "No. This is good enough." :think:

When you have to resort to asking me a question, and then answering it yourself, then that answer is yours, not mine. If it is an ugly answer, it is your ugly answer.

It is stuff like this that makes me think you never could have been a Christian a day in your life. You entirely misunderstand the Cross, now and then.

I have seen that same condemnation issued by Christian fundamentalists against the entire Christian community that doesn’t agree with your fanatical type of dogma. I am not much impressed by fanatics like you that claim to know more about are other’s feelings and thoughts than the people do themselves.