Creation vs. Evolution

[alwight]

Long before hearing this news, you argued with us when we've pointed out that you're far more than minerals and water animated by bioelectrical impulses. So are you ready to listen yet?

I am apparently an evolved creature with all the inherent imperfections and clearly not somehow magically immune to all the undesirable elements of life. I see none of the divine input to it that you seem to.

Anger and bitterness at this point, if you're so inclined, are perfectly human reactions. But they will solve nothing. Don't waste time; there isn't any. Now that your sands are about to run out, what are you willing to give in exchange for your soul? Because you have one and the closer you get, the more you're going to admit that fact to yourself, if to no one else.

Are you ready to stand before the One who gave you your soul?

100% serious question so give the answer serious thought.

Except you can only assert that something called a "soul" exists, perhaps it gives you comfort to believe that as your own sands run out?
If I'm compelled to stand before the supposed all powerful one who has engineered all the human suffering and diseases that have afflicted so many people in this obviously not so supernatural place, including my own, then clearly if I'd had had the chance to have said "yes please" or "thanks but no thanks" then I might have known whom I was dealing with. However my understanding does not include any implied debt to a being far more powerful than I am, who has not even bothered to reveal Himself to me, who certainly didn't ask me if I wanted to exist. I was simply dealt a hand in life just like everyone else, that was what it was, with all its built in iniquities.
And I have to explain myself to your supposed version of God?
Pull the other one, but I might just have a few questions of my own. lain:

 

[musterion]

I am apparently an evolved creature with all the inherent imperfections and clearly not somehow magically immune to all the undesirable elements of life. I see none of the divine input to it that you seem to.

All of creation is (for now) subjected to futility. I am no more exempt from that inflexible rule than you are. Any Christian who says he is, is deluded or lying.

Except you can only assert that something called a "soul" exists, perhaps it gives you comfort to believe that as your own sands run out?

There's no comfort in acknowledging one's soul exists. The comfort is in knowing the One who created us has reconciled us to Himself.

If I'm compelled to stand before the supposed all powerful one who has engineered all the human suffering and diseases

Tut-tut. You've been warned off that cheap shot before. It is SIN that caused all this, and the Devil it's author. It is why you are dying. Put the blame for that where it should be and don't blame God; He's the one offering you the only remedy you need.

However my understanding does not include any implied debt to a being far more powerful than I am,

Because you've chosen to supress in unrighteousness what truth has been shown you. You've CHOSEN to close off your mind to it. No one MADE you do that, not even God.

who has not even bothered to reveal Himself to me,

He has, in Christ, who you choose to despise.

who certainly didn't ask me if I wanted to exist.

He didn't need our permission. That's what creator means.

I was simply dealt a hand in life just like everyone else, that was what it was, with all its built in iniquities.

Yep. Same here.

And I have to explain myself to your supposed version of God?

"My version" isn't the point. It's what the Word of God says. I'm just quoting it.

Pull the other one, but I might just have a few questions of my own. lain:

Repent to Christ and you'll have your chance, I suspect. Die rejecting what He did for you and your mouth will be shut at the Judgment that's coming.

I hope the time you have left is comfortable, but I also hope your conscience pricks you nonstop. Don't despise the grace that He's offering you.

 

[alwight]

Oh right, because someone has a terminal illness they should buy into your superstition.

Like you know the convictions and thoughts of someone else..... Nonsense!

If I find myself standing before the Flying Spaghetti Monster my surprise might be about the same.

 

[musterion]

BTW, Al, I know there's nothing I posted there that you haven't been told before. I'm just of the hopes that, as has happened with many before you, before their ends "more of thought crept with more of time" and you too will seriously reconsider these things.

 

[Jose Fly]

As soon as someone is nearing their end, some of the Christians here circle like vultures, desperately trying to take advantage of the situation to get someone to join their ever-shrinking team. Pretty sad.

Alwight, take care bud. I wish you nothing but the best.

 

[musterion]

As soon as someone is nearing their end, some of the Christians here circle like vultures, desperately trying to take advantage of the situation to get someone to join their ever-shrinking team. Pretty sad.

It's simply the savor of Christ -- which to you is the reek of your stalking death but could just as easily be the fragrance of the life of God (2 Cor 2:15-16) if you so chose.

Alwight, take care bud. I wish you nothing but the best.

Which is annihilation and oblivion, you hope. You have nothing else to offer him, expect possibly heavy sedation and opiates.

 

[Stripe]

As soon as someone is nearing their end, some of the Christians here circle like vultures, desperately trying to take advantage of the situation to get someone to join their ever-shrinking team. Pretty sad.

Everyone is nearing their end and the message of hope doesn't change.

 

[alwight]

I am apparently an evolved creature with all the inherent imperfections and clearly not somehow magically immune to all the undesirable elements of life. I see none of the divine input to it that you seem to.

All of creation is (for now) subjected to futility. I am no more exempt from that inflexible rule than you are. Any Christian who says he is, is deluded or lying.

I think your evidence free doctrinal explanation of factual reality has had to employ its own kind of special inventive creation to cover all the nefarious bases of life.

Except you can only assert that something called a "soul" exists, perhaps it gives you comfort to believe that as your own sands run out?

There's no comfort in acknowledging one's soul exists. The comfort is in knowing the One who created us has reconciled us to Himself.

The comfort is in the delusion that you somehow know something unknowable.

If I'm compelled to stand before the supposed all powerful one who has engineered all the human suffering and diseases

Tut-tut. You've been warned off that cheap shot before. It is SIN that caused all this, and the Devil it's author. It is why you are dying. Put the blame for that where it should be and don't blame God; He's the one offering you the only remedy you need.

I would say that the creator is responsible for all of the creation. Contriving a way to let your God off the hook for all the bad bits is again something of a creation, no wonder you're called creationists.

However my understanding does not include any implied debt to a being far more powerful than I am,

Because you've chosen to supress in unrighteousness what truth has been shown you. You've CHOSEN to close off your mind to it. No one MADE you do that, not even God.

Or you've simply chosen to invent your own version of a fantasy reality.

who has not even bothered to reveal Himself to me,

He has, in Christ, who you choose to despise.

Why on Earth would I choose to do that since I've never met the guy?

who certainly didn't ask me if I wanted to exist.

He didn't need our permission. That's what creator means.

Can you not accept that you are an individual sentient person or are you just a created rag doll to be disposed of in any way your creator sees fit?

I was simply dealt a hand in life just like everyone else, that was what it was, with all its built in iniquities.

Yep. Same here.

Those people drawing bad hands in life are just more rag dolls?

And I have to explain myself to your supposed version of God?

"My version" isn't the point. It's what the Word of God says. I'm just quoting it.

You are as far as I'm concerned in all probability utterly wrong, producing an ancient scripture doesn't make you any less wrong.

Pull the other one, but I might just have a few questions of my own.lain:

Repent to Christ and you'll have your chance, I suspect. Die rejecting what He did for you and your mouth will be shut at the Judgment that's coming.

I hope the time you have left is comfortable, but I also hope your conscience pricks you nonstop.

Thank you but I think not likely to be very comfortable in reality.
I have always been completely honest here, I therefore have no reason to have a guilty conscience.

 

[musterion]

The comfort is in the delusion that you somehow know something unknowable.

Are you sure whatever tumor you have isn't actually colossal hypocrisy that's killing you?

You have always comforted yourself in the unknowable -- to the point of boldly telling us that we're wrong. You've taken great pride and fun in doing it during your career on TOL. You've relished it; that's why you're still here.

Yet here you are, believing that when you die it'll be the big light's out...extinction...oblivion. You take comfort in that, and in the converse, that there'll be no Judge to find yourself standing naked in front of.

Yet you have no more proof for your comforts than you say we have for ours.

If you want to end this conversation with a Mexican standoff, so be it. If you want to admit we both can't convincingly prove to the other what each of us takes comfort in, okay. Same old, same old. But don't tell us we're whistling past the graveyard when you're about to engage your personal nitrogen cycle with dreams of an absolute extinction that you DO NOT and CANNOT KNOW is waiting for you.

 

[alwight]

Are you sure whatever tumor you have isn't actually colossal hypocrisy that's killing you?

Was that supposed to be witty?

You have always comforted yourself in the unknowable -- to the point of boldly telling us that we're wrong. You've taken great pride and fun in doing it during your career on TOL. You've relished it; that's why you're still here.

So shoot me if I've always thought that religious beliefs of all types are probably all about as wrong as each other, but I'm rather sure that in no post of mine have I ever claimed to know that any are actually wrong because I am also an agnostic. I exclude fundamentalist claims here that evidentially are shown to be wrong. You may be rather keen to think that your particular religious belief should be regarded as absolute knowledge while the most I will say is that in all probability based on the available evidence you are wrong.

Yet here you are, believing that when you die it'll be the big light's out...extinction...oblivion. You take comfort in that, and in the converse, that there'll be no Judge to find yourself standing naked in front of.

I think that in all probability being dead will be just the same as before I was alive. I don't claim to know that but I don't see any particular reason to insert a religious doctrine into what evidentially seems to be the case.

Yet you have no more proof for your comforts than you say we have for ours.

I have evidence that there was a time of oblivion before my existence, I have evidence of this existence, I have have evidence of death and the probable return to that oblivion, why must I insert any particular supernatural religious doctrine into the mix?

If you want to end this conversation with a Mexican standoff, so be it. If you want to admit we both can't convincingly prove to the other what each of us takes comfort in, okay. Same old, same old. But don't tell us we're whistling past the graveyard when you're about to engage your personal nitrogen cycle with dreams of an absolute extinction that you DO NOT and CANNOT KNOW is waiting for you.

You seem to be a bit miffed that I might just get off with oblivion and not be judged by your version of god, and sent to eternal agony presumably in a lake of fire?
Are you telling me here that you don't actually claim to know what fate awaits you, perhaps based on your conduct in this life, as laid down by your religious doctrine? I'm saying that you cannot know so why not just admit to some agnosticism too? If you still want to live by your religious doctrine just as you do now that's fine, believe away, but don't tell me you have certainty and knowledge when clearly you don't. lain:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Where are you going to be when you die, Alwight?

Want to bet?

You really are one insidious little creep. You're no different now to that particular scumbag who made a horrific comment in regards to my family those years ago. You're just one completely disgusting individual who shows about as much 'fruits of the spirit' as my cats litter tray.

Alwight, I wish you all the best and I hope for a recovery against the odds dude.

:cheers:

 

[Stripe]

I think your evidence free doctrinal explanation of factual reality has had to employ its own kind of special inventive creation to cover all the nefarious bases of life.

English, dude. English.

By the way, there is evidence for hope in the face of death. Do you have evidence that all there is to come is oblivion?

I would say that the creator is responsible for all of the creation.

Are you responsible for your actions?

You are as far as I'm concerned in all probability utterly wrong, producing an ancient scripture doesn't make you any less wrong.

It means we have evidence. What evidence do you have that all that is to come is nothing?

 

[DavisBJ]

Yet here you are, believing that when you die it'll be the big light's out...extinction...oblivion. You take comfort in that, and in the converse, that there'll be no Judge to find yourself standing naked in front of.

As an atheist holding convictions much the same as Alwight’s, I think you present a rather distorted view of how we view these things. We don’t take comfort in oblivion, in fact we quite enjoy life. But lacking anything close to convincing evidence that consciousness continues beyond death, we view it as intellectual dishonesty to embrace stories that promise an after-life sans evidence. And if the after-life “judge” you speak of actually values integrity, would he prefer we falsely pretend to believe, or will He judge us based on our honest and sincere (though possibly wrong) convictions?

 

[Lon]

As an atheist holding convictions much the same as Alwight’s, I think you present a rather distorted view of how we view these things. We don’t take comfort in oblivion, in fact we quite enjoy life. But lacking anything close to convincing evidence that consciousness continues beyond death, we view it as intellectual dishonesty to embrace stories that promise an after-life sans evidence. And if the after-life “judge” you speak of actually values integrity, would he prefer we falsely pretend to believe, or will He judge us based on our honest and sincere (though possibly wrong) convictions?

Ecclesiastes 3:11

I think I'd start: "God, if You are there, I want to know You."

Your turn, were you serious about integrity or not?

 

[Stripe]

As an atheist holding convictions much the same as Alwight’s, I think you present a rather distorted view of how we view these things. We don’t take comfort in oblivion, in fact we quite enjoy life. But lacking anything close to convincing evidence that consciousness continues beyond death, we view it as intellectual dishonesty to embrace stories that promise an after-life sans evidence. And if the after-life “judge” you speak of actually values integrity, would he prefer we falsely pretend to believe, or will He judge us based on our honest and sincere (though possibly wrong) convictions?

Got any evidence that oblivion is all that awaits?

 

[DavisBJ]

Salty people science

Salty people science

So you'd be okay with a god that was scientifically accurate and respects free thinking rather than mindless adherence.

Ironically, the god of ancient scripture describes himself, and acts in accordance with, exactly that.

Hardly. For the nth time in this thread, I would like some member of your cult to forthrightly admit that many fundamentalist ideas about what the Old Testament says are diametrically in opposition to the science that is routinely and successfully used and taught in every major university and industry in the world.

 

[DavisBJ]

Got any evidence that oblivion is all that awaits?

Nope. I have looked at numerous claims from religionists purporting to show an afterlife does exist, but none were even remotely credible. If, as I believe, my “life” is the term we give to this complex biological entity called my body, when it ceases to function, then by definition, my “life” is over. If you have some evidence of a “spirit” that animates my body, and transcends death, bring it on.

 

[DavisBJ]

Ecclesiastes 3:11

I think I'd start: "God, if You are there, I want to know You."

Your turn, were you serious about integrity or not?

I did that, long ago, with full sincerity. Next?

 

[Lon]

I did that, long ago, with full sincerity. Next?

Then did you give up?
For me, the answers started coming rapidly through scripture reading and as those truths interacted in the 'real' world.
What happened with you? (I 'think' it can support the thread in the manner it unfolds but it can go PM if you like)

 

[DavisBJ]

It means we have evidence.

Are we back to this evidence schtick? You kinda wimped out the last time on even pretending to have evidence for some things said in that ancient nomadic tribal religious account. The evidence that people actually turn to pillars of salt is?

And, wondering if you will again dodge answering something you brought up a while back, - how do you add things to embryos?