Jose Fly
New member
Or you could just explain what this "easy" rebuttal of yours was. But then, that would be the honest approach.
Creation vs. Evolution
- Thread starter MichaelCadry
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Or you could just explain what this "easy" rebuttal of yours was. But then, that would be the honest approach.
Greg Jennings
New member
Do share
Hedshaker
New member
Don't hold your breath :rapture:
Greg Jennings
New member
How far into the future are we looking for these predictions? They'll change dramatically with different lengths of time
Right, why don't we see evolution in progress now ?
iouae
Well-known member
When I ask folks to show me evolution I get asked a thousand questions.
When I ask for predictions, I get questions.
Just impress me with ANY prediction?
The Bible tells us that a mass extinction will precede Christ's coming. Then will come a 1000 year paradise on earth.
Then will come another mass extinction followed by the creation of a new heaven and earth.
Before Christ comes, there will be a great falling away from the faith of true Christians, at the same time as the World Ruler called "The Man of Sin" enforces a "mark" whereby no person can buy or sell without this mark. But this mark will involve idol/image worship, so true Christians will reject it and be persecuted. Oh, and before the great persecution of Christians begins, 1/4 of humans will die of war, famine and pestilence. That's nearly 1.7 billion people.
Do you see how specific and far reaching the Bible predicts.
Let's see evolution predict ANYTHING.
And they do predict a very BIG SOMETHING.
I just somehow feel I will probably have to spoon-feed evolutionists as to what they believe, just as I had to with a definition of evolution.
Greg Jennings
New member
Any prediction? Okay, sure. If you drop off a population of elephants on an island, over the next thousand years or so they'll decrease in size until they're about the size of a pot-bellied pig. That's due to limited food sources in an island environment, and of course the difficulty a full-sized elephant would have moving through a tropical island's flora.
Is that what you were looking for?
On the Bible predictions: anyone can make predictions. If they haven't come true, so what? If I say that the world will end eventually due to giant man-eating frogs, am I also a prophet? I mean, you can't prove me wrong, so I must be right?
For 6days, circular logic is not a logical fallacy, it is a highly developed art form.
Nature has no such expectation, yet as you admit, the "message" in a code that nature naturally creates will cause exactly the same reaction as it would had the code been artifically created. No intelligent input needed, just as long as the "code" gets created, whether by nature or humans.
6days' affinity withy Cadry is unusually transparent in this post from 6days. Like Cadry, 6days tosses out some pseudo-scientific claims that he has no real understanding of, but is satisfied just pasting a big "God" label on them anyway. Not even a real pretense that he follows the scientific method, nor understands what comprises information.
iouae
Well-known member
I asked evolutionists for a definition of evolution.
So they come up with this...
"Evolution" is defined as a change in allele frequencies in populations over time." (post#14877).
So did I make up these more inclusive definitions?
DEFINING EVOLUTION
If one wishes to waste a lot of time and energy, try debating a topic which is not clearly defined.
The word "evolution" means so many different things to so many different people, that one has to decide on a definition first, before arguing the merits and demerits of "evolution".
Why is the following definition of evolution inadequate?
"Evolution is change in the heritable traits of biological populations over successive generations." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
What is wrong with this definition of a dog? "A dog is an animal".
While we would all agree that a dog is an animal, the above definition leaves out a lot.
This definition of evolution, adds a little more.
"Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evolution
If on Google we type "evolution definition" we get ... "ev·o·lu·tion noun 1. the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth."
Notice how different all definitions are. This last definition is closer to the topic under discussion in a creation-evolution debate.
Even the above definition I feel leaves out one central belief of evolutionists, which is that all life today came from one common ancestor.
Here is a more user-friendly definition of evolution from http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_02
"Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. This definition encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations). Evolution helps us to understand the history of life.
The explanation
Biological evolution is not simply a matter of change over time. Lots of things change over time: trees lose their leaves, mountain ranges rise and erode, but they aren't examples of biological evolution because they don't involve descent through genetic inheritance.
The central idea of biological evolution is that all life on Earth shares a common ancestor, just as you and your cousins share a common grandmother.
Through the process of descent with modification, the common ancestor of life on Earth gave rise to the fantastic diversity that we see documented in the fossil record and around us today. Evolution means that we're all distant cousins: humans and oak trees, hummingbirds and whales."
For now I feel a calling to educate evolutionists as to what they really believe, but are too coy to admit.
Likewise I feel a temporary calling to educate them about a huge prediction they made, which is almost a fetish of science to prove or disprove. And they pour tons of money into this project.
So they come up with this...
"Evolution" is defined as a change in allele frequencies in populations over time." (post#14877).
So did I make up these more inclusive definitions?
DEFINING EVOLUTION
If one wishes to waste a lot of time and energy, try debating a topic which is not clearly defined.
The word "evolution" means so many different things to so many different people, that one has to decide on a definition first, before arguing the merits and demerits of "evolution".
Why is the following definition of evolution inadequate?
"Evolution is change in the heritable traits of biological populations over successive generations." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
What is wrong with this definition of a dog? "A dog is an animal".
While we would all agree that a dog is an animal, the above definition leaves out a lot.
This definition of evolution, adds a little more.
"Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evolution
If on Google we type "evolution definition" we get ... "ev·o·lu·tion noun 1. the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth."
Notice how different all definitions are. This last definition is closer to the topic under discussion in a creation-evolution debate.
Even the above definition I feel leaves out one central belief of evolutionists, which is that all life today came from one common ancestor.
Here is a more user-friendly definition of evolution from http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_02
"Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. This definition encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations). Evolution helps us to understand the history of life.
The explanation
Biological evolution is not simply a matter of change over time. Lots of things change over time: trees lose their leaves, mountain ranges rise and erode, but they aren't examples of biological evolution because they don't involve descent through genetic inheritance.
The central idea of biological evolution is that all life on Earth shares a common ancestor, just as you and your cousins share a common grandmother.
Through the process of descent with modification, the common ancestor of life on Earth gave rise to the fantastic diversity that we see documented in the fossil record and around us today. Evolution means that we're all distant cousins: humans and oak trees, hummingbirds and whales."
For now I feel a calling to educate evolutionists as to what they really believe, but are too coy to admit.
Likewise I feel a temporary calling to educate them about a huge prediction they made, which is almost a fetish of science to prove or disprove. And they pour tons of money into this project.
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iouae
Well-known member
Greg
Your made up evolutionary prediction was as useful as I was expecting
But what I was looking for was real science, what serious scientists are spending serious money on, testing evolutionary theory. There is such an evolutionary theory currently being tested, unlike your cute story. But I bet evolutionists themselves do not recognise that their theory is being scientifically tested as we speak.
Your made up evolutionary prediction was as useful as I was expecting
But what I was looking for was real science, what serious scientists are spending serious money on, testing evolutionary theory. There is such an evolutionary theory currently being tested, unlike your cute story. But I bet evolutionists themselves do not recognise that their theory is being scientifically tested as we speak.
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Dear iouae,
Now this is quite interesting!! You've dug deep and hit pay dirt, possibly. Thanks for all of the Hard Work. I know you are trying so much trying to figure out how all of this came to be. I send you accolades!!
God Be With Your Inquisitive Mind!!
Michael
:angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9:
Dear patrick jane,
Whether BJ is out or not is his OWN decision and God's. I hope you are doing well and I want to wish you a VERY MERRY, WONDERFUL CHRISTMAS this year. I couldn't PM a message to you. Glory to God in the Highest!!
Michael
:cloud9: :angel: :cloud9: :angel: :guitar: :singer:
Dear Jose,
They don't self-assemble. God oversees and does it.
Merry Christmas!!
Michael
iouae
Well-known member
Thanks a lot Michael.
The fact that provable civilisation is so recent and so fits in with the Bible, (unlike a bone here, an axe-head there kind of iffy, almost undateable stuff) you would think would convince the most evolution-addled mind. But until one finds Jesus, one is stuck in whatever paradigm of thinking, one finds oneself. Many addicted folks could not shake their addictions, not to mention even acknowledge they were addicted, till Jesus delivered them.
Reading about Sumerian civilisation, these guys had a pantheon of gods, and were superstitious as can be. Today we have the opposite, where science has provided an "out" to be as atheistic as can be. There is no difference between the two. Both cultures do not know Jesus and end up in the thorns. I feel equally sorry for both since it may not even be their fault.
Keep up the good work yourself.
Dear BJ,
What I contribute are things you don't like to hear because they cut you to the quick and you can't explain them, so you go on pretending not to notice that you read them. No, I am not wracking my brain to provide you with examples. You already know what I mean, and I would rather save my precious time than searching through this lengthy thread. You'll do it again and I will let you know then. One thing I could mention is how you glossed over what I told you about acting like an evil Satan. Never heard much of a peep from you about that, as if you never read it.
Michael
Yeah, like you lot are ever going to change your mind....
But, if that's what you're looking for, try this:
- Transitional fossils for every lineage were predicted to exist by none other that big D himself
- Age of the earth was predicted to be way over millions of years, long before dating methods were around, just based on the scale of known evolutionary changes from the earliest found fossils
- ring species
- embryological similarities
- Phylogeny of ERVs and organelles should match the "host" organism's phylogeny, which was only possible to confirm through genetics.
Now on to some specifics that come to mind:
- Tiktaalik
- eusociality in naked mole rats
- Feathered dinos
And so many more
But all of the above means nothing to you, does it?
alwight
New member
I know bees exist and that their entire behaviour is very much linked to and necessitated by the material world, so it isn't surprising to me how they evolved including some very specialised and local coding to deal with specific local factors. But by the same token your Creator remains only an apparently non-functional, if overarching figment of your imagination.
In Asia there is a type of large hornet which attacks honey bees in their hives. Native Asian honey bees have evolved a defence in which they mob each hornet so that they can't fly, it overheats and dies.
Introduced honey bees just don't have any defence against hornets. This is clear evidence, in my mind at least, that life has evolved by natural selection to its particular environment and that this is still happening.
An even stranger side of this is that an orchid has evolved in the same region, not just to look like a hornet but to smell like one. When it is spotted by Asian honey bees it is mobbed and pretty much pulled apart, but its pollen ends up on the bees who may well go on to mob another Hornet Orchid.
I know 6days that whatever I say you will still continue to assert your mantra that your God Creator did it and thus you remain unconvinced, but for me the opportunism of this orchid to take advantage of some totally unrelated local factor is clearly only something that a mindless process, like evolution by natural selection, would ever be likely to conjure up.
iouae
Well-known member
SOME WORLD "FIRSTS", FIRST FOUND AT SUMER
In Samuel Noah Kramer’s book History Begins at Sumer he lists 39 “firsts’ in history from the region among which are the first schools, the first proverbs and sayings, the first messiahs, the first Noah and the Flood stories, the first love song, the first aquarium, the first legal precedents in court cases, the first tale of a dying and resurrected god, the first funeral chants, first biblical parallels, and first moral ideas. The Sumerians also essentially invented time in that their sexigesimal system of counting (a system based on the number 60) created the 60-second minute and the 60-minute hour. They also divided the night and day into periods of 12 hours, set a limit on a `work day’ with a time for beginning and ending, and established the concept of `days off’ for holidays. The historian Bertman writes, “The hand of Mesopotamia still determines the hourly length of the traditional workday and even the length of our electronic entertainment (half-hour or hour TV shows) when our workday has stopped” (334). Bertman further notes that the modern day practice of checking one’s horoscope comes from ancient Sumer and that the astrological signs one is born under were first noted and named by the ancient Mesopotamians.
Whenever the Sumerian civilization was first established in the region, by 3600 BCE they had invented the wheel, writing, the sail boat, agricultural processes such as irrigation, and the concept of the city (though China and Indiaalso lay claim to `the first cities’ in the world). It is generally accepted that the first cities in the world rose in Sumer and, among the most important, were Eridu, Uruk, Ur, Larsa, Isin, Adab, Kullah, Lagash, Nippur, and Kish. The city of Uruk is held to be the first true city in the world.
Ur-Nammu wrote the first legal code in Sumer which became the precedent for the much later, and better known, Code of Hammurabi of Babylon. http://www.ancient.eu/sumer/
The early Sumerian cities were characterized by a high degree of social and economic diversity, which gave rise to artisans, merchants, priests, bureaucrats, and for the first time in history, professional soldiers.
http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Sumer_Iraq_1a.htm
According to Bertman, “In his book, History Begins at Sumer, Samuel Noah Kramer lists 39 `firsts’ in recorded history that can be credited to the Sumerians and the culture they created” (326). Among these `firsts’ are Man’s First Cosmogony and Cosmology, The First Moral Ideas, The First Biblical Parallels, The First `Noah’, `Moses’, and `Job’, Man’s First Epic Literature, The First Case of Library Borrowing, The First Legal Precedent, The First Aquarium, and The First Proverbs and Sayings. Mesopotamia generally, and Sumer specifically, gave the world some of its most enduring cultural aspects and, even though the cities and great palaces are long gone, that legacy continues.
Mesopotamia gave birth to the world’s first cities which were largely built of sun-dried brick.
With them, the Mesopotamians created the world’s first columns, arches, and roofed structures”
This period saw the invention of the wheel (c. 3500 BCE) and writing (c. 3000 BCE), both by the Sumerians, the establishment of kingships to replace priestly rule, and the first war in the world recorded between the kingdoms of Sumer and Elam (3,200 BCE) with Sumer as the victor.
http://www.ancient.eu/Mesopotamia/
The first known writing derives from the lower reaches of the two greatest rivers in this extended region, the Nile and the Tigris. So the two civilizations separately responsible for this totally transforming human development are the Egyptian and the Sumerian (in what is now Iraq). It has been conventional to give priority, by a short margin, to Sumer – dating the Sumerian script to about 3100 BC and the Egyptian version a century or so later.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab33
It is also said that the Sumerians invented the first oboe-like instrument, and used them at royal funerals.
Although short-lived, one of the first empires known to history was that of Eannatum of Lagash, who annexed practically all of Sumer, including Kish, Uruk, Ur, and Larsa, and reduced to tribute the city-state of Umma, arch-rival of Lagash.
The Sumerians were one of the first known beer drinking societies.
The period c. 2700 – 2300 BC saw the first appearance of the abacus, and a table of successive columns which delimited the successive orders of magnitude of their sexagesimal number system.[43] The Sumerians were the first to use a place value numeral system. There is also anecdotal evidence the Sumerians may have used a type of slide rule in astronomical calculations. They were the first to find the area of a triangle and the volume of a cube.
The almost constant wars among the Sumerian city-states for 2000 years helped to develop the military technology and techniques of Sumer to a high level. The first war recorded in any detail was between Lagash and Umma in c. 2525 BC on a stele called the Stele of the Vultures.
The Sumerians were among the first astronomers, mapping the stars into sets of constellations, many of which survived in the zodiac and were also recognized by the ancient Greeks.[46] They were also aware of the five planets that are easily visible to the naked eye.[47]
They invented and developed arithmetic by using several different number systems including a mixed radix system with an alternating base 10 and base 6. This sexagesimal system became the standard number system in Sumer and Babylonia. They may have invented military formations and introduced the basic divisions between infantry, cavalry, and archers. They developed the first known codified legal and administrative systems, complete with courts, jails, and government records. The first true city-states arose in Sumer,…
Conjointly with the spread of writing, the first formal schools were established, usually under the auspices of a city-state's primary temple.
Finally, the Sumerians ushered in domestication with intensive agriculture and irrigation. Emmer wheat, barley, sheep (starting as mouflon), and cattle (starting as aurochs) were foremost among the species cultivated and raised for the first time on a grand scale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
In Samuel Noah Kramer’s book History Begins at Sumer he lists 39 “firsts’ in history from the region among which are the first schools, the first proverbs and sayings, the first messiahs, the first Noah and the Flood stories, the first love song, the first aquarium, the first legal precedents in court cases, the first tale of a dying and resurrected god, the first funeral chants, first biblical parallels, and first moral ideas. The Sumerians also essentially invented time in that their sexigesimal system of counting (a system based on the number 60) created the 60-second minute and the 60-minute hour. They also divided the night and day into periods of 12 hours, set a limit on a `work day’ with a time for beginning and ending, and established the concept of `days off’ for holidays. The historian Bertman writes, “The hand of Mesopotamia still determines the hourly length of the traditional workday and even the length of our electronic entertainment (half-hour or hour TV shows) when our workday has stopped” (334). Bertman further notes that the modern day practice of checking one’s horoscope comes from ancient Sumer and that the astrological signs one is born under were first noted and named by the ancient Mesopotamians.
Whenever the Sumerian civilization was first established in the region, by 3600 BCE they had invented the wheel, writing, the sail boat, agricultural processes such as irrigation, and the concept of the city (though China and Indiaalso lay claim to `the first cities’ in the world). It is generally accepted that the first cities in the world rose in Sumer and, among the most important, were Eridu, Uruk, Ur, Larsa, Isin, Adab, Kullah, Lagash, Nippur, and Kish. The city of Uruk is held to be the first true city in the world.
Ur-Nammu wrote the first legal code in Sumer which became the precedent for the much later, and better known, Code of Hammurabi of Babylon. http://www.ancient.eu/sumer/
The early Sumerian cities were characterized by a high degree of social and economic diversity, which gave rise to artisans, merchants, priests, bureaucrats, and for the first time in history, professional soldiers.
http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Sumer_Iraq_1a.htm
According to Bertman, “In his book, History Begins at Sumer, Samuel Noah Kramer lists 39 `firsts’ in recorded history that can be credited to the Sumerians and the culture they created” (326). Among these `firsts’ are Man’s First Cosmogony and Cosmology, The First Moral Ideas, The First Biblical Parallels, The First `Noah’, `Moses’, and `Job’, Man’s First Epic Literature, The First Case of Library Borrowing, The First Legal Precedent, The First Aquarium, and The First Proverbs and Sayings. Mesopotamia generally, and Sumer specifically, gave the world some of its most enduring cultural aspects and, even though the cities and great palaces are long gone, that legacy continues.
Mesopotamia gave birth to the world’s first cities which were largely built of sun-dried brick.
With them, the Mesopotamians created the world’s first columns, arches, and roofed structures”
This period saw the invention of the wheel (c. 3500 BCE) and writing (c. 3000 BCE), both by the Sumerians, the establishment of kingships to replace priestly rule, and the first war in the world recorded between the kingdoms of Sumer and Elam (3,200 BCE) with Sumer as the victor.
http://www.ancient.eu/Mesopotamia/
The first known writing derives from the lower reaches of the two greatest rivers in this extended region, the Nile and the Tigris. So the two civilizations separately responsible for this totally transforming human development are the Egyptian and the Sumerian (in what is now Iraq). It has been conventional to give priority, by a short margin, to Sumer – dating the Sumerian script to about 3100 BC and the Egyptian version a century or so later.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab33
It is also said that the Sumerians invented the first oboe-like instrument, and used them at royal funerals.
Although short-lived, one of the first empires known to history was that of Eannatum of Lagash, who annexed practically all of Sumer, including Kish, Uruk, Ur, and Larsa, and reduced to tribute the city-state of Umma, arch-rival of Lagash.
The Sumerians were one of the first known beer drinking societies.
The period c. 2700 – 2300 BC saw the first appearance of the abacus, and a table of successive columns which delimited the successive orders of magnitude of their sexagesimal number system.[43] The Sumerians were the first to use a place value numeral system. There is also anecdotal evidence the Sumerians may have used a type of slide rule in astronomical calculations. They were the first to find the area of a triangle and the volume of a cube.
The almost constant wars among the Sumerian city-states for 2000 years helped to develop the military technology and techniques of Sumer to a high level. The first war recorded in any detail was between Lagash and Umma in c. 2525 BC on a stele called the Stele of the Vultures.
The Sumerians were among the first astronomers, mapping the stars into sets of constellations, many of which survived in the zodiac and were also recognized by the ancient Greeks.[46] They were also aware of the five planets that are easily visible to the naked eye.[47]
They invented and developed arithmetic by using several different number systems including a mixed radix system with an alternating base 10 and base 6. This sexagesimal system became the standard number system in Sumer and Babylonia. They may have invented military formations and introduced the basic divisions between infantry, cavalry, and archers. They developed the first known codified legal and administrative systems, complete with courts, jails, and government records. The first true city-states arose in Sumer,…
Conjointly with the spread of writing, the first formal schools were established, usually under the auspices of a city-state's primary temple.
Finally, the Sumerians ushered in domestication with intensive agriculture and irrigation. Emmer wheat, barley, sheep (starting as mouflon), and cattle (starting as aurochs) were foremost among the species cultivated and raised for the first time on a grand scale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
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