Creation vs. Evolution

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TheDuke

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KIND
"To understand the true history of life on Earth, it is important that creation biologists identify the organisms that were created in the beginning. It is generally assumed that the "created kind" is analogous to the taxonomic Family, although numerous exceptions certainly exist. A canonical list of kinds has not been constructed and identifications are extremely provisional (with the exception of humans, on which there is a strong creationist consensus). Baraminologists draw upon several sources of information to identify the created kinds, which include scriptural accounts, hybridization data, and the fossil record.

It is very important not to confuse the "created kind" with the modern use of the word species. Although animals like the fox and coyote might be considered different taxonomic species, they are still parts of the same "kind" of animal. The created kind is thought to be more often synonymous with the "Family" level of classification in the taxonomic hierarchy; at least in mammals; and occasionally it can extend as high as the order level. Here are some examples:
Felidae — Scientists from Creation Ministries International and the Institute for Creation Research have proposed that the original feline kind was comparable to the Liger and the Tigon.
Canidae — Including Wolves, Foxes, Jackals, Coyotes, and Domestic dogs.
Camelidae — Including both the Camel and the Llama, which are reproductively compatible, their hybrid offspring being known as "Camas."
Bovidae — Including Cattle, Buffalo, Bison, and Yaks.
Equidae — Including Horses, Zebras, and *****.
Caprinae — Including Sheep, Goats, and Ibex.
Crocodilia — Including all the varieties of Alligators, Crocodiles, and Gharials.
Elephantidae — Including African and Asian elephants, Mammoths, Mastodons, and Gomphotheres.

Thus the created kind corresponds roughly to the family level of taxonomic classification, and possibly even the order, with the notable exception of humanity wherein the genus is representative.[10]
Humanity — Dr. Sigrid Hartwig-Scherer of the University of Munich concluded that H. erectus/H. ergaster, Neanderthals and H. sapiens were members of the same basic type (which corresponds to a monobaramin) genus Homo."
http://www.creationwiki.org/Created_kind

NEW
adjective \ˈnü, chiefly British ˈnyü, in place names usually (ˌ)nu̇ or nə or (ˌ)ni\
Simple Definition of new
Popularity: Top 40% of words
: not old : recently born, built, or created

Would you like me to define "is" too :)


Thanks for pawning yourself.

So basically no one can agree on what a kindTM is and it seems that even the "creation biologists", whose word I'd take with the entire dead sea's contents of salt, can't provide neither a simple definition, nor a complete list.

That would mean, that no matter what example I give you, we here cannot distinguish what kindTM it is, so you can always claim it's nothing new.

Furthermore, you seem to even misunderstand the second part, because you still haven't told me how new is new enough for YOU.

Guess you're just like all of them YECs.
 

alwight

New member
Probably created..... the bee code is language....evidence of intelligence. It requires a sender... and a receiver to understand and act upon the instructions.
The bee that found the food "created" the new information and transmitted it to the other bees. It's actually evidence that a beneficial behaviour pattern evolved and that new information is being produced all the time in many different ways. There is nothing to suppose that a supernatural creator had anything to do with it.
 

TheDuke

New member
But who does the “expecting”? You said it was the codes themselves that do the expecting: “Codes are a set of instructions that expect to be …” Are you serious? Does a drop of blood on a microscope slide have DNA that laments that it is going to just dry up?

Why do you even bother, I tried explaining this to him over a month ago or something.....
 

gcthomas

New member
Codes have a creator.
So you assert, evidence to the contrary.

DNA is a code.
More of a cypher, as it is missing several properties common to true codes, as has been explained to you.

DNA is evidence of a creator.*
This is the conclusion that you used as a starting assumption. It is the starting assumption and conclusion for every discussion we have. You are incapable of following the evidence of an argument since you have decided every discussion ends with God did it. You are trapped by your own belief.
 

alwight

New member
KIND
"To understand the true history of life on Earth, it is important that creation biologists identify the organisms that were created in the beginning. It is generally assumed that the "created kind" is analogous to the taxonomic Family, although numerous exceptions certainly exist. A canonical list of kinds has not been constructed and identifications are extremely provisional (with the exception of humans, on which there is a strong creationist consensus). Baraminologists draw upon several sources of information to identify the created kinds, which include scriptural accounts, hybridization data, and the fossil record.

It is very important not to confuse the "created kind" with the modern use of the word species. Although animals like the fox and coyote might be considered different taxonomic species, they are still parts of the same "kind" of animal. The created kind is thought to be more often synonymous with the "Family" level of classification in the taxonomic hierarchy; at least in mammals; and occasionally it can extend as high as the order level. Here are some examples:
Felidae — Scientists from Creation Ministries International and the Institute for Creation Research have proposed that the original feline kind was comparable to the Liger and the Tigon.
Canidae — Including Wolves, Foxes, Jackals, Coyotes, and Domestic dogs.
Camelidae — Including both the Camel and the Llama, which are reproductively compatible, their hybrid offspring being known as "Camas."
Bovidae — Including Cattle, Buffalo, Bison, and Yaks.
Equidae — Including Horses, Zebras, and *****.
Caprinae — Including Sheep, Goats, and Ibex.
Crocodilia — Including all the varieties of Alligators, Crocodiles, and Gharials.
Elephantidae — Including African and Asian elephants, Mammoths, Mastodons, and Gomphotheres.

Thus the created kind corresponds roughly to the family level of taxonomic classification, and possibly even the order, with the notable exception of humanity wherein the genus is representative.[10]
Humanity — Dr. Sigrid Hartwig-Scherer of the University of Munich concluded that H. erectus/H. ergaster, Neanderthals and H. sapiens were members of the same basic type (which corresponds to a monobaramin) genus Homo."
http://www.creationwiki.org/Created_kind

NEW
adjective \ˈnü, chiefly British ˈnyü, in place names usually (ˌ)nu̇ or nə or (ˌ)ni\
Simple Definition of new
Popularity: Top 40% of words
: not old : recently born, built, or created

Would you like me to define "is" too :)
Of course the "Elephantidae" in the room is that creationists have avoided any reference to apes, why do you think that is? :think:
 

6days

New member
alwight said:
The bee that found the food "created" the new information and transmitted it to the other bees.
if so... its yet another example that codes have a creator. Codes require an intellience. Codes always have a creator.
 

6days

New member
gcthomas said:
6days said:
Codes have a creator.

So you assert, evidence to the contrary.

Yes... as i correctly state. Evety code has a creator. You believe otherwise but your belief is not evidence.*


gcthomas said:
6days said:
DNA is a code.

More of a cypher, as it is missing several properties common to true codes, as has been explained to you.

As said before.... you are unwilling to follow the evidence so you become illogical...and try to define terms in a way that suits your belief system.

* Dictionaries and scientists call it a code.

* Bill Gates who knows a thing or two about codes, calls it the most sophisticated code in existence.*

* Francis Collins who knows a thing or two about DNA says "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program"

* Dr. Werner Gitt, an information scientist, who knows a thing or two about information, call our DNA at code.

* 'All knowing' Wiki calls it a code "The genetic*code is the set of rules by which information encoded within genetic material..." Hey...thats pretty good.

* Richard Dawkins calls*it a*code...although he might think it was designed by aliens... Anything but our Creator God. (Dawkins like some other atheists understand a 'code' implies intelligence so urges his followers to believe it isn't a true code)

* Atheist Anthony Flew was so impressed by the code, he gave up his belief system in atheism.

But gcthomas and other atheists argue otherwise. They are unwilling to follow the evidence.

Rom. 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
 

6days

New member
Davisbj said:
But who does the “expecting”? You said it was the codes themselves that do the expecting: “Codes are a set of instructions that expect to be …” Are you serious? Does a drop of blood on a microscope slide have DNA that laments that it is going to just dry up?
Ok....expected ....EXPECTED :)

Codes are a set of instructions that are expected to be understood and acted upon. Notice in the quote below I said it is expected that's the receiver understand. Obviously it isn't the bumps on a piece of paper that expect anything. What expects is that the creator of the code expects you to understand.
(Me thinks you are being obtuse)

Also as said, there is no information in sugar molecules....neither in the drop of blood you mention. *Information is immatetrial. "There is no information in dots and dashes... there is no information in sugar molecules... there is no information in raised bumps on a piece of paper...... there is no information in a red light.

But somebody made a code from dots and dashes.

Somebody made a code from bumps on a piece of paper so that blind people could read.

Somebody made a code that says let a red light represent stopping.

Codes are always created.Yes when information is relayed through a code, it is expected that the receiver understands."
 

DavisBJ

New member
Ok....expected ....EXPECTED :)

Codes are a set of instructions that are expected to be understood and acted upon. Notice in the quote below I said it is expected that's the receiver understand. Obviously it isn't the bumps on a piece of paper that expect anything. What expects is that the creator of the code expects you to understand.
(Me thinks you are being obtuse)
No, “expecting” (or any of its variants) is a property only possessed by things with the ability to “expect” – in other words, at least a limited degree of intelligence. But that means you have implicitly built a requirement for intelligence to be involved right in the definition. That shows absolutely nothing about whether codes can be created and used sans intelligent input, since they do not satisfy the ability to be expecting anything.

For example, in humans a chemical called TSH is created in the pituitary gland. It is carried by the blood to the thyroid, and stimulates the thyroid to produce a chemical called thyroxine, which is used in metabolism. When viewed at a purely biochemical level, every stage of this process ultimately is just ordinary chemical reactions. If by some unspecified natural process this same production of TSH occurred and was delivered to the thyroid, then the thyroid would be none the wiser. In that case, there would be no “expectation” involved, there would be just chemistry. And since the TSH was produced by the natural process, there was no “intelligent input” guiding that process. Yet the information encoded in the TSH that stimulated the thyroid to produce thyroxine was received loud and clear.

I recommend you revamp your definition to eliminate the implicit reliance on “expecting”, and show that the chemistry in TSH production could not happen sans the involvement of an intelligent agent.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Of course the "Elephantidae" in the room is that creationists have avoided any reference to apes, why do you think that is? :think:

Because the history of modern civilisation is so young, it proves the Bible.

Did a search for "oldest human civilisation" and got...

"Sumer, located in Mesopotamia, is the first known complex civilization, developing the first city-states in the 4th millennium BCE. It was in these cities that the earliest known form of writing, cuneiform script, appeared c. 3000 BCE.
History of the world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_worldWikipedia"
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Duhhhh, did I say it would?

Well, good buddy, I guess we can just commiserate together in Hell then. Me in Hell for being truthful in my unbelief, and you in Hell for being such a, a, a, well, you know what.


Duhhhh! You still don't get it, do ya'? This is not about sand dunes, but only in your shortsightedness. I won't be in Hell with you. Ask my Father. Do you think that by telling the truth about your disbelief, you will fare any better. You don't believe in the God that created you and you think He will be thrilled and snatch you up to Heaven for that?? BJ, every time that I try to help you, you let your dull mind get in the way. Thinking you are wise, you prove yourself to actually be a dunce. And you don't even know it, but we Christians know it and we just feel sorry for you. That's why we try to convince you otherwise. But that convincing goes on Page after Page after Page, and you still don't get it. You'd rather throw off a snide remark and ignore the essence of what is being said to you. What a waste. Whatever. I guess you're just not purposed by God to go to Heaven. You don't believe in Him or Heaven, so have at it. Lose the best thing that could ever happen to you, out of pride and false knowledge, compliments of Satan!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Not my prayers, Mike, yours. I just want to listen in and see if you are all just pretending about this prayers really being answered business.


I know what you mean and I told you that He won't help you to even believe He grants prayers. You didn't catch that, eh. See how miscommunication can be quite an expensive problem?? It can TOTALLY change History or Relationships. Just because of misunderstanding.

Do you even KNOW that I am STILL trying to HELP you?? It's just that I have brought out the BIG GUNS, because my revolvers didn't work. You need a cannon to get through to your thick head. Do you think it would please me for your soul to go to Hell instead of me trying to avoid that at all costs?? And you don't think I love you!!?? OPEN your Ears and Eyes. You have two Ears. Use them to listen. You've got one Mouth. Shut it for a while so that you can HEAR with your Ears!!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
All human codes have a code book for translation of the arbitrary symbols. DNA has no code book, and no arbitrarily chosen symbols - it is purely a functional chemical process. There is no choice as to which amino acid forms on any stretch of DNA, so no need for a code book. So it is not like a human code.

Even if you do continue to claim it is a code, your logic in concluding a designer is faulty.

You claim that all codes have a designer, so DNA must be designed. But you have assumed the latter in claiming the former - it is a classic circular argument with no solid foundation.

Why is your faith so weak that you need to fabricate scientific support for it? Does it not stand on its own?


Dear gcthomas,

Good to hear some action from you!! I can assure you that 6days is not lacking in Faith and his is not weak in the slightest. It is just something you do not yet have nor understand. His words do stand on their own, just like His God. You just don't understand neither. Oh, that you were so blessed to have those things.

Good Blessings,

Michael
 

alwight

New member
Because the history of modern civilisation is so young, it proves the Bible.

Did a search for "oldest human civilisation" and got...

"Sumer, located in Mesopotamia, is the first known complex civilization, developing the first city-states in the 4th millennium BCE. It was in these cities that the earliest known form of writing, cuneiform script, appeared c. 3000 BCE.
History of the world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_worldWikipedia"
I really don't see your "reasoning" of using civilisation as a supposed reference, as if humanity didn't exist long before the first civilisations were recorded. Modern humans are thought to have been around for some 200,000 years.
Clearly creationists are embarrassed by the existence of all apes and by the human connection to them, which is simply ignored.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear Davis,

I just got the scoop on you. God will not let you follow someone around with cameras so you can 'prove' a miracle. He will not confirm Himself to you because He says then you will believe in Him and He would have to take you to Heaven. That's why He does what He does. He doesn't WANT you in Heaven. You are too staunch for your own good. And now I can quit trying to help you. You are the proverbial "out-of-luck." I didn't know this until now. The Lord says that's why Jesus spoke in parables. So that the sinners wouldn't understand Him and have to be saved and taken to Heaven. That is why He revealed Himself to 'babes.' I guess I don't have to keep trying anymore. I did try to go that extra mile for you, but now it is not necessary. Just was a waste of my time, I guess.

Now You Know.

Michael
 

alwight

New member
if so... its yet another example that codes have a creator. Codes require an intellience. Codes always have a creator.
No, it only shows that codes can be produced by evolved instinctive behaviour because that is a beneficial and selectable trait to have.
 
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DavisBJ

New member
I know what you mean and I told you that He won't help you to even believe He grants prayers. You didn't catch that, eh. See how miscommunication can be quite an expensive problem?? It can TOTALLY change History or Relationships. Just because of misunderstanding....

Michael
Hi, Mike. Good to hear from you, even if it is you whomping on me several posts in a row. I really wish God had created cell phones in the Garden of Eaten. Just think, every time a miracle was due, God would notice someone getting ready to record it with their cell-phone camera, and God would have said, "Oh no, I don't do pics. This miracle is cancelled." The Bible, minus all the cancelled miracle stuff, would just be mostly a short paperback with lots of genealogies in it.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
So you assert, evidence to the contrary.


More of a cypher, as it is missing several properties common to true codes, as has been explained to you.


This is the conclusion that you used as a starting assumption. It is the starting assumption and conclusion for every discussion we have. You are incapable of following the evidence of an argument since you have decided every discussion ends with God did it. You are trapped by your own belief.


Dear gcthomas,

He is not trapped by his own belief. He is just privy to some information that you don't, and maybe never will, know. We know that God will prove Himself in a timely manner: When He feels like it, not when you disbelievers feel like it. I know this and 6days know this, and iouae knows it. That's why we post what we do. Many of our posts, that you think are untrue, will prove themselves to be true regardless of what you believe instead. You put your faith in Science; we put our faith in God. I'd hardly EVER compare the two. There is no such comparison. I know there's a God and you don't know. That is where the disagreement comes in. But you expect proof on your terms when you aren't going to get it until God is Good And Ready!! Then you will find out, but it will be kind of late for you.

I'm not trying to be bogue. I am only just telling you.

Much Love Coming Your Way,

Michael
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Dear gcthomas,

He is not trapped by his own belief. He is just privy to some information that you don't, and maybe never will, know. We know that God will prove Himself in a timely manner: When He feels like it, not when you disbelievers feel like it. I know this and 6days know this, and iouae knows it. That's why we post what we do. Many of our posts, that you think are untrue, will prove themselves to be true regardless of what you believe instead. You put your faith in Science; we put our faith in God. I'd hardly EVER compare the two. There is no such comparison. I know there's a God and you don't know. That is where the disagreement comes in. But you expect proof on your terms when you aren't going to get it until God is Good And Ready!! Then you will find out, but it will be kind of late for you.

I'm not trying to be bogue. I am only just telling you.

Much Love Coming Your Way,

Michael

Michael, I take no issue with your belief in God. What puzzles me is why you are so quick to deny science and an old Earth when neither contradicts your belief in him.
 
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