Creation vs. Evolution

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Greg Jennings

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Either you believe in biblical creationism or in the THEORY of Evolution. Simple as that.

"The term "theory" can mean something different, depending on whom you ask.
"The way that scientists use the word 'theory' is a little different than how it is commonly used in the lay public," said Jaime Tanner, a professor of biology at Marlboro College. "Most people use the word 'theory' to mean an idea or hunch that someone has, but in science the word 'theory' refers to the way that we interpret facts."

The process of becoming a scientific theory
Every scientific theory starts as a hypothesis. According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, a hypothesis is an idea that hasn't been proven yet. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step — known as a theory — in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon."
http://m.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html

A scientific theory is not any regular theory. You're thinking of a hypothesis. A hypothesis can grow into a scientific theory through hard evidence
 

Bright Raven

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"The term "theory" can mean something different, depending on whom you ask.
"The way that scientists use the word 'theory' is a little different than how it is commonly used in the lay public," said Jaime Tanner, a professor of biology at Marlboro College. "Most people use the word 'theory' to mean an idea or hunch that someone has, but in science the word 'theory' refers to the way that we interpret facts."

The process of becoming a scientific theory
Every scientific theory starts as a hypothesis. According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, a hypothesis is an idea that hasn't been proven yet. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step — known as a theory — in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon."

A scientific theory is not any regular theory. You're thinking of a hypothesis. A hypothesis can grow into a scientific theory through hard evidence

So why is evolution not called fact?
 

Greg Jennings

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So why is evolution not called fact?

Because that's not how science works. There is no "fact of general relativity." There is a "theory of special relativity" however. The theories of general relativity, quantum mechanics, evolution, heliocentrism and so on are not called "facts."

Or do you deny that the sun is at the center of the solar system, as heliocentric theory states?
 

iouae

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I do believe the Coelacanth, living in a dark cave at the bottom of the ocean COULD, and indeed HAS survived through MANY mass extinction events, two of which the Bible names. As have many aquatic animals.

I have not made a study of where the water for a worldwide flood came from, and how this would change the salinity of the oceans (if at all) but there would be carrion lying around to feed on, and many animals can survive long periods, without food, in semi-dormancy. Then there are eggs or larval stages, seeds etc. which can survive a flood.

Even Noah did not have to replant the world's vegetation. It did that itself.
 

MichaelCadry

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Michael, what lion have you ever heard of that survived on straw? Lions are carnivores as their teeth show. They are able to eat bread and other products of grain, but they can't live off of it alone. Without meat, a lion will die no matter what else you feed it.



Dear Greg,

See Isaiah 11:7KJV. Also Isaiah 65:25KJV. "The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock; and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord." Now if the Bible says it in two different places, there is no reason that I have not to believe it.

Much Love & Care, Greg J,

Michael

:angel: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :angel: :guitar:
 

MichaelCadry

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Hi Michael,
would you simply accept it from me (Honest Al :D) that your scientific conclusions including astrophysics are, to say the least, driven rather more by a literal interpretation of Genesis than even remotely derived from science?
The Coelacanth is reckoned to have been around some 360 million years albeit not entirely unchanged, but to suggest that most of marine life would have somehow remained unfazed by a global flood lasting for about a year is nonsense. A global flood would have completely covered virtually all the marine environments that sea life so depends on, never mind that freshwater aquatic life would have all been wiped out within hours.


Dear Honest Al,

Hi! It's your buddy, Michael. I don't believe the Coelacanth is 360 million years old, but instead 6,000 some years ago. So that's quite a big difference. Do you actually think such a fish would be swimming in an ocean that is 360 million years old. That 360 million x 365 days. Sounds extremely long and boring. Just very highly improbable. If you think the fish was here 360 million years, then you must think the Earth has been here even longer. Talk about an OLD Earth. I really don't think so, tbh. Alwight, you should know better than all of this!! C'mon!!

Much Love From God, And Me,

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear 6days,

The Great Flood did not last a year, did it?? I thought the waters were on the Earth for 150 days. Right? Please get back to me on this. Thanks tons, brother!! I've got to get going for a couple hours!! Will chat in a bit.

Praise The Lord God!!

Michael
 

6days

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Greg Jennings said:
But let's pretend for a second that animals did commonly evolve new organs and structures within 40 years. The flood of Genesis only lasted a year. That means that in order for those animals in the water to avoid extinction, they would've had to adapt.....well.....immediately. That's just not plausible
You are correct...sort of.*

Rapid adaptation would be impossible if the genome did not have the pre-existing information and mechanisms...evidence of our Intelligent Designer.*
 

6days

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Dear 6days,
The Great Flood did not last a year, did it?? I thought the waters were on the Earth for 150 days. Right? Please get back to me on this.
Genesis 8
3*The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days ;the water had gone down,4*and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains*5*The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.

The effects of water draining from the continents, seismic activity and tsunamis likely lasted quite a few years.
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear 6days,

So it took longer than a year?? I'm really surprised. I had no idea! I guess when God does something big, He does something BIG!! So did the beginning of the Flood/rain start happening in the 1st day of the 1st month?? Just wondering. So how are you doing 6days? Hope that all is well with you!!

In God's Love,

Michael

:cloud9: :cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9:
 
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alwight

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Dear Honest Al,

Hi! It's your buddy, Michael. I don't believe the Coelacanth is 360 million years old, but instead 6,000 some years ago. So that's quite a big difference. Do you actually think such a fish would be swimming in an ocean that is 360 million years old. That 360 million x 365 days. Sounds extremely long and boring. Just very highly improbable. If you think the fish was here 360 million years, then you must think the Earth has been here even longer. Talk about an OLD Earth. I really don't think so, tbh. Alwight, you should know better than all of this!! C'mon!!

Much Love From God, And Me,

Michael
Hi Michael, you seem to have your own way of completely missing the point.
Of course individual creatures only have a short lifespan, think species, not individuals. :rolleyes:
 

Derf

Well-known member
Hi Alwight,
I apologize for the rather extensive delay in answering your post. for some reason I can't get into the thread sometimes, and it always seems to be when I'm ready to work on my reply to you.

I'm trying something new. I'm inserting comments in your quotes in a different color.

In my more lucid moments perhaps. :)


Well, my mission here as I see it is to steer you away from a fundamentalist doctrinal adherence and to embrace science. Not as a religion but as something that best explains the facts and evidence, which it may not always get right of course, but is arguably getting there and generally doing a good job.
So you want me to embrace something that may be wrong, but is generally ok and may get stuff right eventually--perhaps not until after I am dead? What do you you want me to do with this thing you call science? Embrace it for what purpose?

So I can use a cell phone or fly in an airplane? Ok, considered it embraced! But if you want me to use science as you described it to discern morals and how I should act and how to prepare for eternity--I'm pretty confident it will come up short based on your description. For those things I (and everybody else that cares about eternal life) need something else to cling to for that time period beyond our earthly existence. Something that we can hold to with a "fundamental and doctrinal adherence" perhaps.

Creationists however have a fixed predetermined doctrinal time limit in which everything has to be made to fit into, whereas science takes whatever time the evidence seems to require [at the moment] which strangely enough always seems to dovetail well with other scientific disciplines without too much fettling [that's a new word for me--learned something new today]. Hence the generally accepted scientific epochs and the clarity of how long ago something probably happened in actual Earth years. [But what does it do for you? And why would you be a missionary for a doctrine you consider to be fickle, or perhaps "evolutionary" in the sense that it gets better with age?]

You seem to me to have your own background agenda to maybe find some doubt for doctrine to occupy, rather than to honestly seek to correct your own understanding or science if it is wrong. Science is about being wrong sometimes and being corrected by the evidence. There's nothing wrong with questioning science, but simply doing so because it doesn't fit with a pre-concluded religious agenda isn't exactly going to help put science on a better track imo, unless what you say is based in fact and evidence, rather than perhaps an adherence to a literal Genesis.
Here's the crux of the matter. Only a literal Genesis is of any use. If it's allegorical, there's no point in it at all. But if it's literal, then we have to decide whether it's fact or fable--like all literature. And if it's fact, then we have to decide what to do with it in light of "scientific" declarations of fact that contradict it. As you said, science is a multi-discipline field, and though you've said that most branches seem to agree, that's not really the case. The "laws" of physics and general observation don't fit with the story of evolution. If our understanding of the past needs to be guided by what we observe today, then we should recognize that pouring a bunch of sunlight (energy) onto a creature does not cause that creature to have more capable offspring. Pouring a bunch of sunlight onto anything tends to degrade that thing. Radiation causes mutations and mutations are overwhelmingly harmful. That's what science says. Creatures we dig up were not in some intermediate state of operability--they all seemed to have advanced complexity that works for what it was <designed> for. Even with fettling, we can't get animals to evolve into other types of animals or even into much better of an animal. Dogs bred with special features are often deficient in other areas. Mutated flies don't have useful mutations or survive better. They're just grotesque. Bacteria that seem to achieve some kind of mutational benefit by surviving against antibiotics are not more fit for normal bacterial existence, they are less so. That's what science tells us.

The evolution story needs just as much as the biblical story to be judged for its literalness and factuality. And it's failing, despite the grand hoopla of the fawning press, academia, and governmental sanction.
Then perhaps for you there is hope, but I think you are perhaps trying to fudge your own beliefs albeit with at least some desire to value the core conclusions of science generally.
Cognitive dissonance?
Do you really think that the Earth is young because real facts and evidence indicate that is so, or are you more compelled to presuppose that the Earth is young because that's what Genesis would have us believe, if presumed to be an inerrant historical narrative? You can't really have it both ways. [I can if it's true]

Differing opinions are one thing but evidential support is what tends to settle scientific arguments. I don't know what you mean by "squelched" science. Science isn't about someone's opinions it's about being demonstrably falsifiable should it be false. Science is being constantly challenged by science itself but creationism doesn't contribute anything of value to that process. [Squelched science is where the courts have to intervene to say a particular viewpoint is not allowed to be taught, like the Scopes trial (yes I include that one) or the Dover decision. Squelched science is trying to punish climate change deniers.]

Yes but your holy scripture was actually written by people with sophisticated language skills who were just as able as we are to "spin a yarn", to use allegory, to embellish, to use folklore myth and legend. They wanted to be heard and to be entertaining, [those genealogies are sure entertaining--they ought to make a movie out of those things!] they weren't simply putting down what they saw outside, they had an agenda as we all do. [That's a conclusion based on the evidence, but it's not the only conclusion. See how easy this is?]

There are always a few with strong personal opinions outside the herd perhaps, which is a good thing too, but as I say it's evidence and facts that usually forces science together in the end, not doctrinal beliefs.

Science provides conclusions that we can compare with the evidence to judge for ourselves how believable or not it is. Nothing is deemed to be proven truth.[Ok, if I judge for myself and come to the YEC conclusion, why do you think you need to be a missionary for something else????? On the other hand, if your mission leads toward strengthening false conclusions that can drive people away from a saving faith in Jesus Christ, toward eternal damnation, you can see why we would push back a little, right?]


An honest creationist. :)

Science at least isn't written in tablets of stone.


There was, a couple of years ago, but now seems to have largely gone away. The scientist in charge who found the supposed "soft tissue" that excited YECs is very much a Christian but nevertheless dates the demise of her dinosaur to well over 60 million years ago iirc, despite her findings.

Firstly I will concede my bias that imo if anything of scientific value is to be found on creationist websites then it is purely coincidental, or perhaps taken from a more scientific source if they think something helpful to YECism exists. Say if it can be pointed to as a possible contradiction or can be quote mined. I accept my bias here and will try to keep an open mind, but for them a literal Genesis will always trump any science that seems to contradict it, there are no open minds to be found there.[Sometimes we can be a little too fervent in our denials before the facts are completely known, admittedly. Sometimes we don't understand the scriptures well enough to figure out how they apply to a certain scientific discovery or conclusion. Sometimes the scientific conclusions are wrong. All 3 conditions need to considered regularly.]
Science otoh isn't a religion and it expects to be wrong sometimes. [Science isn't a religion, but men that do science are very religious, just sometimes the religion is Christianity, sometimes it's atheism, sometimes it's something else. Richard Dawkins is one of the most religious men I know. Very fervent! He's definitely a missionary!]



Not too sure what you mean by "better than art". A painting is what it is, but clever words can be used to paint a mental picture that needn't always relate to facts. Many legends and myths are part of many cultures, it's just human nature to tell stories and to embellish.[So you agree that scientists can and will do this too?]
I can perhaps tell that for you a behemoth could only mean dinosaur? But if it were true then it seems to have been a herbivore maybe a hippo which the author has used his own word for.[That tail like a cedar thing really hurts that interpretation, but the word by itself could definitely have other interpretations--the description seems to narrow the field considerably.]
Job seems to have been intended as a moral tale which like it or hate it shows that not everything in the Bible was intended to be taken literally. [The problem with that is that the reason for bringing up behemoth in the passage is to show the power of God. Think about it--how powerful is God if He can only refer to imaginary creatures to show His power.]


Would you like to claim then that coelacanths are only a few thousand years old, and tell me why you and scientists seem to disagree about that?
Some coelacanths are even less than that. :) But I think you mean that they've only been around as a group for less than a few thousand years. And yes, I believe that to be the case. Is "scientists" refering to all scientists or just some? If all, then your question is misleading. If some, then I can tell you that I'm more in favor of the scientists that look at the wholistic data picture, including the evidence from the historical narrative in Genesis, which other scientists have discounted outright.
Has science conspired against YECs and perhaps God, or perhaps sometimes they may also believe in God but just don't see any good reason to adhere to a literal Genesis time scale as YECs seem so compelled to?
I think there are cases of both.
 

Greg Jennings

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Dear Greg,

See Isaiah 11:7KJV. Also Isaiah 65:25KJV. "The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock; and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord." Now if the Bible says it in two different places, there is no reason that I have not to believe it.

Much Love & Care, Greg J,

Michael

:angel: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :angel: :guitar:

In college I took several courses on Christianity. It is the opinion of those who study the scriptures that the wolf/lamb/lion passages are parabolic. They're meant to illustrate that when Jesus returns, there will peace throughout. The wolf (bad people) will no longer prey on the lamb (good people), and all people will live together in harmony. The lions of the world will no longer hurt or take advantage of the lambs, but instead all will be peaceful and just.

If this passage wasn't parabolic, then that would mean that poor snakes would be condemned by God to eat dirt forever. Does that sound right to you?
 

Greg Jennings

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You are correct...sort of.*

Rapid adaptation would be impossible if the genome did not have the pre-existing information and mechanisms...evidence of our Intelligent Designer.*

So you agree that no animal can adapt to drastic condition changes in one year?

You should, because individuals don't evolve or adapt, species do. There aren't many fish species and there are no whale/dolphin/porpoise species that are even able to reproduce within a year of their birth.
 

MichaelCadry

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You are correct...sort of.*

Rapid adaptation would be impossible if the genome did not have the pre-existing information and mechanisms...evidence of our Intelligent Designer.*


Dear 6days,

The Lord God said He would destroy every creature and creeping thing off of the Earth during that Flood. So the only animals, etc. needing any adapting were the creatures in the Ark and the aquatic life. That's it.

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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I do believe the Coelacanth, living in a dark cave at the bottom of the ocean COULD, and indeed HAS survived through MANY mass extinction events, two of which the Bible names. As have many aquatic animals.

I have not made a study of where the water for a worldwide flood came from, and how this would change the salinity of the oceans (if at all) but there would be carrion lying around to feed on, and many animals can survive long periods, without food, in semi-dormancy. Then there are eggs or larval stages, seeds etc. which can survive a flood.

Even Noah did not have to replant the world's vegetation. It did that itself.


Dear iouae,

If the Earth was covered with water for long over 150 days, that's almost four months. The Lord God said He destroyed the creatures and creeping things which hath breath in their nostrils. So how would it matter if there were carrion, human or animal, when it was under water for that long. Wouldn't it be spoiled once the waters completely abated?

Michael
 
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MichaelCadry

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Because that's not how science works. There is no "fact of general relativity." There is a "theory of special relativity" however. The theories of general relativity, quantum mechanics, evolution, heliocentrism and so on are not called "facts."

Or do you deny that the sun is at the center of the solar system, as heliocentric theory states?


Dear Greg Jennings,

Are you saying that the galaxies all circle our galaxy?

Michael

:angel: :cloud9: :angel:
 

MichaelCadry

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Hi Michael, you seem to have your own way of completely missing the point.
Of course individual creatures only have a short lifespan, think species, not individuals. :rolleyes:


Dear alwight,

I already am thinking 'species.' I don't believe that the species Coelacanth dwelt on the Earth for 360 million years, nor that the age of the Earth is even 360 million years old. It's a big misnomer.

Warmest Wishes!!

Michael
 

iouae

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Dear iouae,

If the Earth was covered with water for long over 150 days, that's almost four weeks. The Lord God said He destroyed the creatures and creeping things which hath breath in their nostrils. So how would it matter if there were carrion, human or animal, when it was under water for that long. Wouldn't it be spoiled once the waters completely abated?

Michael

Hi Michael

"The first living coelacanth was discovered in 1938 and bears the scientific name .... it feeds primarily on cephalopods (cuttlefish, squid, and octopus) and fishes."

All these food sources would still be around during the flood.

Likewise crocodiles can survive a year without food.

Sharks also eat fish, and dead bodies.

All the animals we call "ancient" could survive a flood.
 
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