Creation vs. Evolution

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TheDuke

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The phrase "secular humanism" became prominent after it was used in the*United States Supreme Court*case*Torcaso v. Watkins.*In the 1961 decision, Justice*Hugo Black*commented in a footnote, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the*existence of God*are*Buddhism,*Taoism,Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism, and others."
Wiki

aha, so some judge made a footnote. That settles it for you?
No own thoughts or ideas, no commentary, nothing!

Just the usual ignoring of all the other aspects of a post, so that you can focus your entire attention on kicking a dead horse by quote mining.
How christian of you :luigi:
 

TheDuke

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Only God's Word can be considered the ultimate source of truth.*

Cosmology, paleontology and Theology are supporting evidence.*

Interpretations of evidence though must be made using the lens of God's Word. *For example we believe in the resurrection because The Bible tells us...we don't accept the resurrection based on biologist opinions *

so, back to 2+2=5 then, eh?
 

6days

New member
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/690958main_p1237a1.jpg

The universe 13.2 billion years ago from Hubble's extreme deep field view.
13.82 billion you meant?

You are confusing secular opinions with God's Word. And, you are confusing distance with time.

Questions for you....*
1. Do you think God could spread the heavens faster than the speed of light?

2. Why did Einstein call the one way speed of light a convention?

The age of the distant stars is 2 days older than humanity...Genesis 1
 

6days

New member
The Duke said:
maybe it will help if you first define what YOU consider a religion, since I really can't see humanism being anywhere near it.
Especially "SECULAR" humanism, come on, mate, it's in the bloody title
after being shown that others have called secular humanism a religion....

The Duke said:
aha, so some judge made a footnote. That settles it for you?*

No own thoughts or ideas, no commentary, nothing!

No...not really. We disagree. Secular humanism is a form of religion. I'm not the only one who thinks so. You are not the only who who disagrees.


Even humanist websites use religious type jargon explaining their belief system *with phrases like 'secular humanism is*comprehensive, touching every aspect of life including issues of values, meaning, and identity. '


From an atheist website...'Why Evolution is True' an article ...(ready the b_____ title!)

U.S. federal court declares secular humanism a religion.....

The court finds that Secular Humanism (and atheism) *is a religion for Establishment Clause purposes.*
 

iouae

Well-known member
13.82 billion you meant?

You are confusing secular opinions with God's Word. And, you are confusing distance with time.

Questions for you....*
1. Do you think God could spread the heavens faster than the speed of light?

2. Why did Einstein call the one way speed of light a convention?

The age of the distant stars is 2 days older than humanity...Genesis 1

This photo was 13.2 billion, i.e.not all the way back because that is impossible. One cannot see further back than its plasma stage.

1. The Big Bang invokes hyperinflation (cosmic inflation greater than the speed of light in the first second of the Big Bang) so God could spread the universe faster than light.

2. I presume because it is easy to measure the round trip of light speed, but difficult to measure its speed in one direction (synchronising clocks). So Einstein assumed both speeds are the same viz. one-way and two-way.

A light year is a measure of distance.

Even if the universe expanded faster than c, stars still take time to transform H to He to... and after billions of years to explode and then regroup with elements heavier than Fe.

So neither of your two questions will help you fudge the age of the universe. Why try. Just accept a gap between creation and day 1 and get with the science.
 

6days

New member
iouae said:
.The Big Bang invokes hyperinflation (cosmic inflation greater than the speed of light in the first second of the Big Bang)

The Bible invokes God, creating and spreading out the stars on the 4th day

(So the distance is not a measurement of time)

iouae said:
2. I presume because it is easy to measure the round trip of light speed, but difficult to measure its speed in one direction (synchronising clocks). So Einstein assumed both speeds are the same viz. one-way and two-way.

Einstein may have assumed both speeds are the same but said it was impossible to measure the one way speed. He called the one way speed of light a convention because it could be almost instantaneous...it can be almost any value but the two way speed remains a constant.*


We don't know how fast God spread the heavens nor how fast he caused the one way speed of light. *


iouae said:
So neither of your two questions will help you fudge the age of the universe. Why try. Just accept a gap between creation and day 1 and get with the science.

You continue to confuse distance with age. And, you continue to confuse your beliefs with science.*


For in six days, God created the heavens and the earth
 

iouae

Well-known member
The Bible invokes God, creating and spreading out the stars on the 4th day

(So the distance is not a measurement of time)

So that is your proof that distance is not a measure of time?

Explain that to me. Light has not stopped moving away from all luminous objects since the time they were created. And that light still reaches us today. We CAN see luminous objects the light from which has taken 6000 years to reach us. But we seamlessly see further and further away, dimmer and dimmer objects.

I frankly do not understand your argument.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Einstein may have assumed both speeds are the same but said it was impossible to measure the one way speed. He called the one way speed of light a convention because it could be almost instantaneous...it can be almost any value but the two way speed remains a constant.*

And you are clutching at the straw that light MIGHT have a significantly different value for c in one direction only??

So significant a difference that it changes 13.75 billion into 6000 years?


All evidence we see working with light coming from all parts of the universe in all directions is that it seems to travel at c. It seems to behave exactly as predicted.

I would not even have thought of considering that it might have different values if travelling in one direction only. I think this is a pure technicality that Einstein HYPOTHESISED about, that it would be difficult to measure one-way direction of light. And most of his theories are independent of one or two-way direction speeds. One thing I do know is that neither of us are qualified to discuss Einstein's work. But why not clutch at some inexplicable technicality in Einstein's work to nullify what all cosmologists believe - viz. that we live in an old universe. And these greater scientific minds dismiss one way two way speed of light obviously, since you are the first person I have ever heard to raise it.
 

iouae

Well-known member
You continue to confuse distance with age. And, you continue to confuse your beliefs with science.*


For in six days, God created the heavens and the earth

I know who is confused.

Your WRONG interpretation of Genesis 1 forces you to start with a young universe.

If speed = distance/time and c = speed of light (a constant)

then speed x time = distance or c x t = distance

So distance is equivalent to time/age (multiplied by the speed of light)

Thus if we can, through a telescope, reckon the distance (from the brightness of cepheid stars), then we know the time or age of that light source.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hi Michael

I believe that on the first day God created light.
I do not believe God created the heavens and the earth AND light.
That leaves me free to believe there was a gap between the creation of the heavens and the earth and the first day.
This gap can be as long as science says.
If it says 13.75 billion years, or 5 billion, I have no reason to fight science on this. If science said 10000 years, I would believe that.

I am as much into science as you are into cooking. If I were to ask you to believe that meat and wine are evil - that would be the same as asking me to believe that science is evil.

Looking through a telescope is not hard. And the bigger the telescope, the further one sees. The further one sees, the longer it has taken light to get here. And 13.75 billion years is not close to 6000 years. A kiddies telescope from Toys-R-Us can see stars, the light of which has taken more than 6000 years to get here. Expansion of the universe is so slight over this distance as to be irrelevant. So expansion is not fudging the numbers by much.

And looking at the strata of rocks, it is as clear as anything that there are rocks near the surface with human fossils, and below these rocks devoid of human fossils. And this occurs worldwide. Thus there was a time on earth before humans. Human fossils are only found in the relatively shallow strata, showing the majority of earth's history had no humans. So C14 dating and Piltdown man are not a factor in my belief. I believe before the flood there was less radiation, so less C14 formed, which gives longer ages to pre-flood fossils.

The scriptures say God cannot lie (Titus 1:2). That means He cannot stage the heavens or the rocks to look different to their real ages either. Why would He? He has nothing to hide.

God loves to see His children arguing about His word on forums such as this. These are not salvation issues. God loves to see His children so passionate about Him that they would take time out of their day to talk about Him. I think He loves to see atheists and agnostics contributing here too.

I have been in cult churches where all believe the same thing and nobody fights over doctrine. Now THAT is scary.

Michael, It is lovely hearing from you as always.


Dear iouae,

We seem to have a lapse in communication here. God created Adam as a young man, instead of as a boy-child. Same with Eve, instead of a girl-child. He created the chickens, instead of the eggs, so they would have to hatch before becoming chickens. He created the cattle, not calves. The cattle got pregnant and then there were calves. Same with all of the creatures and aquatic life. Do you understand that all, by any chance? So just because the Earth and Universe look old, they are a lot younger than they look. God made them older than infancy, man, woman, creatures, fish, the Earth and the Universe. But still the Earth and Universe is younger than some of the scientists think. They say they are billions of years older. Give me a break. They only think as far as they can think. That is their limits.

There was a time when those stars and their starlight was only 100s of years away from the Earth. That's according to the Big Bang Theory. There was the Light of God way before there was the Light of the Sun and Moon. Iouae, you can certainly see that when you read Rev. 21:23KJV and Rev. 22:5KJV. Look up those verses and study them for a minute before you come up with this saying that there was no light until the Sun was created. Do it.

May God Help Your Thinking Quickly,

Michael
 

iouae

Well-known member
Iouae, you can certainly see that when you read Rev. 21:23KJV and Rev. 22:5KJV. Look up those verses and study them for a minute before you come up with this saying that there was no light until the Sun was created. Do it.

May God Help Your Thinking Quickly,

Michael

Hi Michael

Rev 21
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

From verse 25 we see that the sun is still around, and the earth IS still rotating, resulting in there still being day and night in the New Jerusalem.

Why is there no night? Because God gives off light. This does not mean that God removed the sun to replace its light. No sun = no day.

When verse 23 says there is no NEED of sun and moon to give light to the city, it does not mean these are no longer there to measure out the days, weeks and seasons. It just means their light is not needed, it is overshadowed by God's light.

Regards
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Hi Michael

Rev 21
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

From verse 25 we see that the sun is still around, and the earth IS still rotating, resulting in there still being day and night in the New Jerusalem.

Why is there no night? Because God gives off light. This does not mean that God removed the sun to replace its light. No sun = no day.

When verse 23 says there is no NEED of sun and moon to give light to the city, it does not mean these are no longer there to measure out the days, weeks and seasons. It just means their light is not needed, it is overshadowed by God's light.

Regards

New Jerusalem
View attachment 20800

View attachment 20801

View attachment 20802
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hi Michael

Rev 21
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

From verse 25 we see that the sun is still around, and the earth IS still rotating, resulting in there still being day and night in the New Jerusalem.

Why is there no night? Because God gives off light. This does not mean that God removed the sun to replace its light. No sun = no day.

When verse 23 says there is no NEED of sun and moon to give light to the city, it does not mean these are no longer there to measure out the days, weeks and seasons. It just means their light is not needed, it is overshadowed by God's light.

Regards


Dear iouae,

See Rev. 21:1KJV, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." Read further to Rev. 21:23KJV, "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." The old earth and heavens were dissolved beforehand. See Rev. 20:11KJV, "And I saw a great white throne and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." See 2 Peter 3:10,12KJV. You check it out and type it out to me in your next post. It says clearly what?? That the earth shall melt away. Check it out, amigo!! Now, I think Peter is wrong when he says that the earth and heavens shall melt right after Jesus Returns. We are told there will be a second death over 1,000 years after Jesus' Returning. That is when the earth and heaven will be burned up and shall melt with fervent heat. Still, Jesus will Return Again, and the devil will be locked away for 1,000 years, so it will be over 1,000 years that the earth and heavens will finally be burnt up. So Peter will sort of be telling the truth, even if he is mistaken on the timing of it. Everyone makes mistakes. All of the disciples and apostles thought that Jesus would Return in their lifetimes. They are reborn in present day earthly bodies of men and also those who pierced Him. They are all alive right now and they shall see Him Return and get on their knees and sob ferociously. Okay, I'm telling you what I know. What do you think? Can you understand what I'm saying here?

Trying To Share Some Info To Make Us Both Better Human Beings. God Bless Us, Please!!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hi Michael

Rev 21
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

From verse 25 we see that the sun is still around, and the earth IS still rotating, resulting in there still being day and night in the New Jerusalem.

Why is there no night? Because God gives off light. This does not mean that God removed the sun to replace its light. No sun = no day.

When verse 23 says there is no NEED of sun and moon to give light to the city, it does not mean these are no longer there to measure out the days, weeks and seasons. It just means their light is not needed, it is overshadowed by God's light.

Regards


Dear iouae,

Seems like you're making this stuff up as you go along, amigo!! Yes, the Sun will remain. It is the Lake of Fire, where Satan will be thrown into, and also the false prophet, and Antichrist. See Rev. 19:20KJV. See also Rev. 20:10KJV. Satan shall be cast into the lake of fire and burn forever and ever. It's written there in black and white. Post the words to me of these two Scriptures for me. I went and found them, so I would appreciate it if you would post the verses I've mentioned here to show that you have actually checked them out. Thanks!!

Much Love From God And Me, iouae,

Michael
 

iouae

Well-known member
Hi Michael and 6days

If I had to ask a Sunday School group of kiddies what God created on the first day, almost all of them would get the right answer. "On the first day god created light".

A few adults and "brighter" kids would think, "Hang on, surely God must have created the heaven and the earth too?"

I want to explain why the kiddie group is correct.

1) It would only be an ASSUMPTION by the adults that God SURELY must have created the heaven and earth earlier the first day?

2) This assumption is proven incorrect by Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good:
God does not admire the heaven, the earth and the light, calling them good. God just calls "the light" good.

3) If we assume that God created the heaven and the earth early the first day, then some questions come to my mind.

Why did God not do a better job of creating the heaven and earth the first time? Why does this "rush job" leave the earth "without form and void", in darkness, covered with water and thick cloud? Was it necessary to create the earth in such a decrepit state in the first place?

4) If we adopt the natural reading of Genesis that God created the heaven and earth IN THE BEGINNING, without assuming that beginning was on the first day, then we don't have to answer the questions in "3" above.

5) If there was a gap between the creation of heaven and earth and Day 1, that gap can be ANY length of time. Science suggests the original creation (Big Bang) of the heavens occurred 13.75 billion years ago, and that earth only came into existence 5 billion years ago.

6) Consider the possibility that Gen 1 is not addressing the original creation of the world, but rather a week in which God restores/renovates/remakes earth from "without form and void", dark and covered with water, into the earth we live in today.

7) 6000 years ago, in 6 literal days, God replenished the earth, stocking it with modern plants, animals, and man.

8) Maybe a mass extinction occurred which left earth "without form and void".

9) God invokes 4 witnesses to testify on His behalf, as to His greatness. Ps 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

I believe Cosmology (the heavens) testifies to the greatness of God. Hubble telescope looks back 13.2 billion years and can photograph the early cosmos. Every part of the cosmos is fantastic.

The other witness is Palaeontology (the firmament) which shows His handiwork through all ages of earth's history. And this testifies to multiple different biomes in earths past.

10) If I had to guess, I would say Gen 1 is describing God recreating the earth after the catastrophe which ended the Pleistocene, at the beginning of what palaeontologists call the Holocene.

11) Both witnesses, Cosmology and Palaeontology, show a far greater God than most religious folks imagine. These two witnesses give us an almost perfectly clear look at what God has been busy with for the last 13.75 billion years, both in connection with the heavens and the earth.

12) Other witnesses to the greatness of God are Science and the Bible. The sciences like biology, microbiology, marine biology etc. tell us how great every every little creature is down to its smallest detail.

13) Ps 104:26-30 perhaps describes a mass extinction and recreation event....
...there is that leviathan [dinosaurs like plesiosaurus??], whom thou hast made to play therein. 27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. 28 That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. [mass extinction??] 30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. [regeneration such as Gen 1].

14) Most arguments with Cosmology, Palaeontology and Science in general are solved when Christians accept that Gen 1:1 did not occur on Day 1. God is renewing earth in one literal week, 6000 years ago, after some mass extinction event left it "without form and void".

And He places Adam and Eve on earth, so this is a very important new beginning.









 

6days

New member
iouae said:
And you are clutching at the straw that light MIGHT have a significantly different value for c in one direction only??
Not at all. We don't know how God created and spread the heavens. But we do know that that distant starlight is not a problem for He who spoke the universe into existence.*

Psalm 33:9 *For when he spoke, the world began! It appeared at his command
 

6days

New member
iouae said:
Thus if we can, through a telescope, reckon the distance (from the brightness of cepheid stars), then we know the time or age of that light source.
It's not quite so simple. We have a light horizon at 46 billion light years yet you believe the universe at only 18+b.l.y. *You invoke pseudoscientific concepts like hyper inflation to try shoehorn the data to fit your belief system.*

I 'invoke' the Creator God of the Bible who 'in six days created the heavens and the earth and everything in them'
 

iouae

Well-known member
Dear iouae,

Seems like you're making this stuff up as you go along, amigo!! Yes, the Sun will remain. It is the Lake of Fire, where Satan will be thrown into, and also the false prophet, and Antichrist. See Rev. 19:20KJV. See also Rev. 20:10KJV. Satan shall be cast into the lake of fire and burn forever and ever. It's written there in black and white. Post the words to me of these two Scriptures for me. I went and found them, so I would appreciate it if you would post the verses I've mentioned here to show that you have actually checked them out. Thanks!!

Much Love From God And Me, iouae,

Michael


10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

OK so I live to please you Michael :)

But what do the above have to do with me or this thread?

In a previous post I proved to you the sun would be there shining on earth during the New Jerusalem era, overshadowed by the glory of God. But without sun and moon there could not be days, and no moon, no months. But the Tree of Life bears different fruits each month, so seasons and moon still there.
 

TheDuke

New member
No...not really. We disagree. Secular humanism is a form of religion. I'm not the only one who thinks so. You are not the only who who disagrees.


Even humanist websites use religious type jargon explaining their belief system *with phrases like 'secular humanism is*comprehensive, touching every aspect of life including issues of values, meaning, and identity. '

From an atheist website...'Why Evolution is True' an article ...(ready the b_____ title!)

No we don't! Because you have no opinion on this matter, you just parrot what a judge says.

I told you before, define what religion is to you first - then you can classify a philosophical movement on whether it meets the criteria.



Finally, how do you call a person without religion?




PS: quoting websites w/o links is pointless.
 
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