Creation vs. Evolution

[6days]

I'm rather sure 6days that you'd believe that black is white if it were in Genesis.

If God said lack is white....it would be.

Where exactly do you think your "evolutionists" got that idea from and what is it about coelacanths that seems to fascinate them so much, since they aren't scientists apparently?

Some evolutionists are scientists...some aren't.
Some creationists are scientists...some aren't.

 

[DavisBJ]

Alwight commented to 6days:

… I'm rather sure 6days that you'd believe that black is white if it were in Genesis.

6 days’ response:

If God said lack is white....it would be.

So often I have had Christian apologists claim that under Christian philosophy the world is expected to be understandable and knowable, and that was instrumental in the fostering the development of science in the western world. And then I see this response from 6days in which not even a pretense of logical consistency is left intact.

 

[DavisBJ]

Yes, Gods word tells us we live in a young universe, and science helps confirm that.

All you’ve got is your narrowly-held view of what an ancient tribal creation story says. And almost all of it has been shown to be scientifically false.

 

[DavisBJ]

Evolutionists still hate admitting that soft tissue has been found numerous times.

What evolutionists? Any of them posting here at TOL?

The dino soft-tissue information has been in print in major scientific journals (including Science and Scientific American) for nearly a decade now, as well as discussed in numerous places on the web (such as the Smithsonian website).

What are the scientists who are actually looking into the dino soft-tissue saying about what they have found?

 

[MichaelCadry]

That sounds fantastic.

My meal was spinach (swisschard) grown in my garden on grey water, microwaved for 8 min, with white sauce plus cheese and garlic, microwaved for 2 min. And Jentzen Franklin was interviewing Ben Carson while I ate. Does life get better?

Ps: Glad you getting back to your music. I may dust off my harmonica later.

Dear iouae,

Yes, we used to grow Swiss Chard in our garden when I was a teenager. Mom used to make it. I just love it. Sounds like you are eating it right. With a sauce! Yummmm!!!

Michael

:angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:
​

 

[MichaelCadry]

That sounds fantastic.

My meal was spinach (swisschard) grown in my garden on grey water, microwaved for 8 min, with white sauce plus cheese and garlic, microwaved for 2 min. And Jentzen Franklin was interviewing Ben Carson while I ate. Does life get better?

Ps: Glad you getting back to your music. I may dust off my harmonica later.

Dear iouae,

I hope you aren't thinking that I am boasting. I am just sharing my life with you and I want to be friends with you, not boast! Thanks and God's Best For You, iouae!!

Michael

 

[iouae]

Dear iouae,

I hope you aren't thinking that I am boasting. I am just sharing my life with you and I want to be friends with you, not boast! Thanks and God's Best For You, iouae!!

Michael

Michael - I know you were not boasting - just telling how to turn ordinary ingredients into an extraordinary meal. I admire that.

I WAS boasting a bit however, first that I actually managed to grow something (I am not good at that) and that my meal only took 10 minutes to make.

Unfortunately all food tastes good to me. A slice of bread and butter is as nice as a steak. My taste buds are barbarians.

Warmest regards

 

[MichaelCadry]

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This could have been 7000 years ago or this could have been 13.75 billion years ago or this could be 5 billion years ago. The Bible does not say. Neither does the Bible say this occurred on the first day. Light was made on the first day. So this is before the first day.

I set out now to prove that this is a RECREATION of earth which occurred 7000 years ago. This is not the original big Bang creation 13.75 billion years ago, neither is this the 5 billion years ago creation of earth.


2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Either God had created the world "without form and void" as an intermediate stage, or earth had become "without form and void" due to a prior mass extinction. Again the Bible does not say. The Hebrew supports both "WAS without form and void" or BECAME so.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The earth's surface is completely covered with water, and a thick nuclear-winter like cloud enshrouds the earth right down to the surface of the water. There is just a chokingly thick atmosphere.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God is speaking from the perspective of the surface of the waters, where His Spirit fluttered. From here, the sky is seen to thin out so that one can make out day from night. God has thinned the atmosphere so that day and night can be differentiated.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

I now want to prove by logic, that an old earth, probably 5 billion years old is being renewed after a mass extinction.

1) If the sun, moon and stars are only created on day 4, how can there be day and night without the sun, and a rotating earth? It is impossible.
So the sun exists at this stage, but from the perspective of the surface of the earth, no day or night could be differentiated till the end of day one. God has thinned the chokingly thick atmosphere to a point that sunlight penetrates right down to the watery surface of earth. That is what occurred on day one.

In a prior post I asked the question "What was the light God made on day one, if sun, moon and stars only are created on day four"?

The answer is that from the perspective of where God's Spirit moved, from the perspective of earth's watery surface, here could be seen light for the first time since the mass extinction.

My guess would be that a massive comet made of ice had struck earth or a super volcano had erupted at the end of the Pleistocene. We are about to begin the Holocene or modern era. God is about to replenish earth with our modern plants and animals - and modern man.

Dear iouae,

I am not trying to pick on you in any way, whatsoever, my buddy!! You must know that God said in Rev. 21:23KJV, "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Also, in Rev. 22:5KJV, "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light;" There is a Light of God that is not the Light of the Sun. It is the Light of God. That's why when God said, Let there be light, it was not the Sun's light.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear All,

You know I keep thinking that I have shared all of the information I can with you and that it is time for me to go and then I think of the Post above that I have written about God's Light not being the Sunlight. I guess I'm still useful here. There is so much more I know, but a lot of it I have to keep secret from you all. I have to make sure I be careful.

With God's Blessings Upon You All,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

I wonder if Michael’s recent intense antipathy for me isn’t just another of his bi-polar type mood swings. I think I will avoid rattling the bars on his cage for a while.

But he does mention one thing I had not expected – his offense at my mention the miracle of the loaves and fishes. As I mentioned, that type of event is squarely in the middle of the type of things that physics deals with. I can’t see why offense should be taken for asking permission to actually measure and understand how some of the miracles attributed to God are accomplished. And I did ask 6days, in a recent post, if he would kindly see if I could get an invite to the next event at which God dramatically demonstrates such supernatural powers. No answer yet from 6days.

In a way, it might be unwise to ask to be allowed to attend a supernatural event, since some such events are reported to have involved the calling down of fire from heaven to immolate the unbelievers. Kinda like requesting a ticket to attend your own assassination. But the request for the invitation still stands. My disbelief in the very existence of the supernatural entity tempers any qualms I might have, and in allegiance to true scientific purity, even the likelihood of my demise can be of value. I know of doctors who spent their careers treating serious diseases, only to find late in life that they themselves had come down with the fatal ailment. One doctor in particular kept detailed records on how his own psyche dealt with the realization that he was going to die. If I am to be immolated, first give me time to strap temperature and pain and heart-rate sensors to my body.

But back to the physics and miracles question, (and with acknowledgement to Neil Tyson), history actually is replete with cases not unlike what I want – a clear case of God doing something that physics can study. For most of man’s history the very motion of the bright pinpoints of light in the sky was often put forth as due to God’s involvement. Yet it was Newton - a good Christian, who was also one of the premier scientists - who turned his thoughts to how the heavenly bodies moved, and not long after he gave the world the law of gravity - a rather simple mathematical equation which obviated the need for thinking how God was involved in orbital motion. It’s not that Newton was adverse to relying on God, and in fact there were details of planetary motion that Newton was unable to explain. And in those gaps in Newton’s own knowledge is where he deemed it necessary to reinsert God as an explanation, while mentioning God not at all in his presentation of the Law of Gravity.

Some time later mathematicians having a command of a new mathematical technique called perturbation theory revisited the orbital anomalies that Newton saw the hand of God in, and found that, just like the Law of Gravity, there was a perfectly sensible mathematical explanation that eliminated the observed orbital motion altogether from relying on supernatural assistance. Nowhere in physics today is God studied as a cause of orbital motion, yet God was, only a few centuries ago, thought to be intimately involved in what we now call orbits.

Maybe Cadry (and 6Days?) want to avoid a repeat performance, wherein physics finds a perfectly natural explanation for something long believed to be evidence of divine action. In other words, maintain ignorance in deference to the fear that belief in God will suffer.

Dear DavisBJ,

You know I have a problem leaving my baby (my Creation thread) all by itself. I have given it to Patrick Jane. If he doesn't want it, he's got to give it back to me. I didn't work over two years for nothing. And now you know how you make me ill by saying terrible things about my Savior Jesus, who is the Son of God. I get extremely angry about that. But should I allow that to chase me away. No!! You said a couple other things about God that I felt the same way about. That's why I reacted the way that I did. It is not me who has the problem, Davis, it's you!! Can't you see that?? Anyway, it is water under the bridge now. I gave you some good rep pts. so that you could get a star. You know that you are welcome at my thread, but please do not say malicious things about my Father and Brother, God and Jesus. I can't emphasize that more without cussing, which I don't like to do. OK, enough said. Every once in a while, I discover things that I have not mentioned to TOLers here, and I'm glad I didn't quit the thread sooner because I had to mention the Light in Post #13909. I'm trying to teach you ALL that you'll need to know before Armageddon comes. It will help you all tremendously. Put you way ahead of everyone else. You will teach those around you the things that I have taught you here.

OK, I still love you BJ. Don't do it again, please.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Alwight,

How are you doing?? Fine I hope!! I hope that your buddies, DavisBJ, gcthomas, and Hedshaker are doing well also. I'm sure I've left out somebody. I try not to. I miss The Barbarian, and noguru, and Stuu. I have contacted noguru and am waiting to hear back from him on Facebook. See what happens. Well, Alwight, I can't write long 2nite because it's already 4:30 a.m. here. Eeeek!! I do hope you are doing well, today. I suppose it is 11:30 a.m. there. I'm really tired and will try to write more 2nite and a PM too!!

Very Warm Regards & Cheerio!!

Michael

 

[iouae]

Dear iouae,

I am not trying to pick on you in any way, whatsoever, my buddy!! You must know that God said in Rev. 21:23KJV, "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Also, in Rev. 22:5KJV, "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light;" There is a Light of God that is not the Light of the Sun. It is the Light of God. That's why when God said, Let there be light, it was not the Sun's light.

Michael

Hi Michael

I am not requiring you to stop believing the world is 6000 years old with my explanation. You can believe Gen 1:1 occurred 6000 years ago or 5 billion years ago or 13.75 billion years ago.

I am adamant that Gen 1:2 is describing the state earth was in, 6000 years ago. And you do too. So are we really that far apart?

In my next post, I discuss the 7 days of creation, which all happened in 1 week, 6000 years ago.

 

[alwight]

Hi Michael, I just PM'ed you some chat.

 

[iouae]

Creationists are always telling atheists and agnostics to take Genesis chapter 1 literally.

Today I am going to challenge Creationists to take Genesis 1 literally.
In particular, I am asking Creationists to take Gen 1:1 literally.

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Hebrew for "heaven" is actually plural or "shamayim". The Bible lists 3 heavens.
1) earth's atmosphere 2) the cosmos 3) God's throne.

Can Creationists believe that by Gen 1:2 we have 1) an earth 2) with its atmosphere 3) and the cosmos?

So what is God doing for the further 7 days?
Tweaking and adding to what is already there.

Day 1 - God clears the thick atmosphere THAT WAS ALREADY THERE, so that the sun THAT WAS ALREADY THERE can shine through.

Day 2 - God lifts the cloud THAT WAS ALREADY THERE, raising it high above the sea THAT WAS ALREADY THERE creating clear sky (firmament) between.

Day 3 - God raises land THAT WAS ALREADY THERE causing it to poke out of the sea THAT WERE ALREADY THERE. God then populates the land with plants.

Day 4 - God appoints the sun, moon and stars THAT WERE ALREADY THERE to mark out days, months, years and Feast Days.

Day 5 - God populates the sky THAT WAS ALREADY THERE with birds, and God populates the seas THAT WERE ALREADY THERE, with fish.

Day 6 - God populates the land THAT WAS ALREADY THERE with land animals and man.

 

[Interplanner]

Creationists are always telling atheists and agnostics to take Genesis chapter 1 literally.

Today I am going to challenge Creationists to take Genesis 1 literally.
In particular, I am asking Creationists to take Gen 1:1 literally.

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Hebrew for "heaven" is actually plural or "shamayim". The Bible lists 3 heavens.
1) earth's atmosphere 2) the cosmos 3) God's throne.

Can Creationists believe that by Gen 1:2 we have 1) an earth 2) with its atmosphere 3) and the cosmos?

So what is God doing for the further 7 days?
Tweaking and adding to what is already there.

Day 1 - God clears the thick atmosphere THAT WAS ALREADY THERE, so that the sun THAT WAS ALREADY THERE can shine through.

Day 2 - God lifts the cloud THAT WAS ALREADY THERE, raising it high above the sea THAT WAS ALREADY THERE creating clear sky (firmament) between.

Day 3 - God raises land THAT WAS ALREADY THERE causing it to poke out of the sea THAT WERE ALREADY THERE. God then populates the land with plants.

Day 4 - God appoints the sun, moon and stars THAT WERE ALREADY THERE to mark out days, months, years and Feast Days.

Day 5 - God populates the sky THAT WAS ALREADY THERE with birds, and God populates the seas THAT WERE ALREADY THERE, with fish.

Day 6 - God populates the land THAT WAS ALREADY THERE with land animals and man.

You're on to some things there.

If you look through Moses' style, you'll find a structure something like this:
1, summary or title statement
2, pre-exisiting condition
3, new action
4, summary (again, sometimes)

So 1:1 is not 'action.' To show that, some of the translations have tried to include 'already' or 'Now, the earth was...' to reference pre-existing. The thing is we don't know how long.

Along with the mere fact of pre-existence is the condition it's in: formless, empty, dark. If the Bible were merely dialed in to the geologic level, a person might go compare other objects in our system and see that there are various similar ones. Of course, this earth already has water. But we know that the Bible occasionally brings in a supernatural element, and one other place that describes blackest darkness is the pair of passages about rebellious angels in 2 Pet 2 and Jude. There the Greek location 'tartarus' is used which is where the evil Titans were banished, in a parallel manner. All this raises questions outside of the scope of natural sciences.

The most recent understanding of the firmament that I have found plausible is that it was sugilite. It was not water as such. It is a trace everywhere around the earth's surface but not in strata and is opaque and has some insulating value. The breaking open of the great deep in the deluge is the source for most of the flooding. It remained liquid and did not vaporise (become cloud).

The event called 'light' on day 1 seems to be distant light, not the local sun, because of day 4's event.

The land was probably what is called pangaea, and the sea was the Epeiric. All of that was seriously reformed and reconfigured, including vertical tectonic movement, in the deluge.

 

[DavisBJ]

Dear DavisBJ,

You know I have a problem leaving my baby (my Creation thread) all by itself. I have given it to Patrick Jane. If he doesn't want it, he's got to give it back to me. I didn't work over two years for nothing. And now you know how you make me ill by saying terrible things about my Savior Jesus, who is the Son of God. I get extremely angry about that. But should I allow that to chase me away. No!! You said a couple other things about God that I felt the same way about. That's why I reacted the way that I did. It is not me who has the problem, Davis, it's you!! Can't you see that?? Anyway, it is water under the bridge now. I gave you some good rep pts. so that you could get a star. You know that you are welcome at my thread, but please do not say malicious things about my Father and Brother, God and Jesus. I can't emphasize that more without cussing, which I don't like to do. OK, enough said. Every once in a while, I discover things that I have not mentioned to TOLers here, and I'm glad I didn't quit the thread sooner because I had to mention the Light in Post #13909. I'm trying to teach you ALL that you'll need to know before Armageddon comes. It will help you all tremendously. Put you way ahead of everyone else. You will teach those around you the things that I have taught you here.

OK, I still love you BJ. Don't do it again, please.

Michael

Dear Michael,

Welcome back from your existential crises. Friends should be truthful with friends, so I will be truthful with you. I disbelieve in your God, and in the role Jesus played as depicted in the Gospels, perhaps for much the same reasons you are not a follower of Islam. I am not intentionally mocking your deities, but you seem to take offense when I ask very natural questions about declarations you make (“no male or female in heaven” type comments from you). Sorry if that offends you, but remember that you have no obligation to even read what I post if you don’t like it.

We are kinda close together right now, yesterday we were much farther apart. But I haven’t moved in that time. For some time now I have largely ignored your trivial dismissals of scientific ideas that are widely accepted in the scientific community. Some streams are just plain naturally muddy, and you have to live with it. I might relax on the banks of what you say, and listen to the murmur, but I see no point in bathing in it, and haven’t the time or interest to keep trying to purify it.

That’s where I am. You will need to come to where I am, I am not coming to you.

 

[6days]

The event called 'light' on day 1 seems to be distant light, not the local sun, because of day 4's event.

You need to read Genesis to see what it really says.
God created light on day1 and called it good...not a seemingly distant light.
Then continue reading... On the 4th day God created the sun, moon and stars.

 

[6days]

Creationists are always telling atheists and agnostics to take Genesis chapter 1 literally.

False

Today I am going to challenge Creationists to take Genesis 1 literally.
In particular, I am asking Creationists to take Gen 1:1 literally.

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Hebrew for "heaven" is actually plural or "shamayim". The Bible lists 3 heavens.
1) earth's atmosphere 2) the cosmos 3) God's throne.

Can Creationists believe that by Gen 1:2 we have 1) an earth 2) with its atmosphere 3) and the cosmos?

So what is God doing for the further 7 days?
Tweaking and adding to what is already there.

Day 1 - God clears the thick atmosphere THAT WAS ALREADY THERE, so that the sun THAT WAS ALREADY THERE can shine through.

Day 2 - God lifts the cloud THAT WAS ALREADY THERE, raising it high above the sea THAT WAS ALREADY THERE creating clear sky (firmament) between.

Day 3 - God raises land THAT WAS ALREADY THERE causing it to poke out of the sea THAT WERE ALREADY THERE. God then populates the land with plants.

Day 4 - God appoints the sun, moon and stars THAT WERE ALREADY THERE to mark out days, months, years and Feast Days.

Day 5 - God populates the sky THAT WAS ALREADY THERE with birds, and God populates the seas THAT WERE ALREADY THERE, with fish.

Day 6 - God populates the land THAT WAS ALREADY THERE with land animals and man.

There are many commentators who add confusion to God's Word. You are one of the many who add confusion and twist God's Word.
How about you quote Genesis 1 and just let it stand?
Or ....Ex.20:11 "For in six days, God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them"

 

[Derf]

You're on to some things there.
The most recent understanding of the firmament that I have found plausible is that it was sugilite.

Sugilite (/ˈsuːɡɨlaɪt/ SOO-gi-lyt), also known as lavulite, is a relatively rare pink to purple cyclosilicate mineral with the complex chemical formula KNa2(Fe,Mn,Al)2Li3Si12O30. Sugilite crystallizes in the hexagonal system with prismatic crystals. (from Wikipedia)

Sounds like it would be pretty hard to fly in that stuff! Gen 1:20 KJV

 

[Hedshaker]

Alwight commented to 6days:

Originally Posted by alwight View Post
… I'm rather sure 6days that you'd believe that black is white if it were in Genesis.

6 days’ response:

Originally Posted by 6days View Post
If God said lack (sic) is white....it would be.

A while back I caught a video on youtube where a fundamentalist Christian said: If the Bible said 2 + 2 equalled 5 then I would take that as true and just work it out..

I've been trying to find it but can't remember which it was. Been a while back.

Isn't it a strange phenomenon? When black can be white and 2 + 2 can = 5, profound religious beliefs are really more important than actual reality.

I sometimes have to pinch myself