Creation vs. Evolution

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Interplanner

Well-known member
Does this look like death by natural causes?

Long-limbed Albertosaurs – a Clue to <b>Dinosaur</b> Predation

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search...+images&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-002


How much geologic force does it take to fold a dinosaur? When Dr. Austin was a junior at the UW in 1968 he was told he would have no job if he kept pursuing catastrophist geology. In the 2009 video posted above, he says that almost all geology is catastrophist today.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Interplanner,
re: "All sin was placed on him..."

Is that sin still on Him?


re: "...and the wrath of God was meted just on him."

Exactly what did the wrath consist of and how long did the wrath last?


In the Gospel event, after he cried out that he had been forsaken by God, his last word was "It is accomplished." This is understood to be the completion of the suffering that was an atonement for sin.

"God made him a sin offering" 2 Cor 5, which is to say, God became the sin-offering himself.

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement...He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forebearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time (Paul speaking in the 50s 1st century), so as to be just and the justifier of a person who has faith in Jesus." Rom 3.

If this is not accepted, then yes, a person suffers for their own sins.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
I think that Christian apologetics perhaps has a very difficult task indeed in trying to account for an imperfect and arguably an apparently entirely natural world.
A frankly impossible task imo.

Just how do you shoehorn in a perfect God into an imperfect world?
Blaming mankind for his own demise, as feeble as that is, probably is just about the best spin apologetics can do.

Otoh apologetics is perhaps deliberately and desperately trying to steer away from something rather more blindingly obvious and likely which is based on real facts and evidence; that the best evidence for an entirely natural godless world is the apparently entirely natural godless world itself!
A world that just is what it is, often cruel and harsh that no caring involved god created, nor is currently controlling.
Humans have surely created God, not the other way around.:plain:


I think you have maybe underestimated the effect of Satan. When we first meet him, he immediately throws himself into dismissal and challenge of one basic command. It is fascinating that the entire world was available to the first couple, perfect climate, food for the picking, ever-available sexual pleasure, AND one restriction. Being a thorough "victim" of the "missing tile syndrome," what does Satan do? ***** that the place is awful and that God hideous for the one restriction!

Later, we find that he is the same way toward Christ. He thinks supernatural powers exist for the next meal; that a person should go from one dare-God to the next; that he owns the world and it's his to give away. "His native language is lies" said Jesus.

Back to the temptation, his 'missing tile syndrome' was contagious and affected Eve first. I don't know what they had in mind by doing the one thing they should not have, but, hey, they aren't God and aren't infinite. Who is going to cast a stone at them and say we would never have done what they did?

In the Trinity, there was love and communication before the foundations of the world. As "parents" (cosmologically speaking) they knew the "teenagers" might mess it up for the worst of reasons (they were). And that immediately afterward the man would probably blame the woman for what he did--as though he didn't do it himself!

Each of us is truly responsible for our decisions. If I had a perfect climate, gardening work, free food and a naked woman companion all the time, I'd like to think I would ignore the one limitation. But apparently not. Satan is a master of skepticism, cynicism, narcissism. Eve knew beauty was all around her, but she still bit into the one beautiful thing that was restricted.

There is a limited dualism between good and evil in the Bible. "Limited" means evil did not exist forever, going back and it will not going forward. It begins sometime before the earth is formed as we see it in Gen 1. Evil breaks out amongst arrogant angels who rebel, including Satan. It may explain why the earth is formless and void and black and murky when we first hear of it (it may have been a place where Satan as a rebellious angel was incarcerated). In Job 38 God says that he had to 'shake out the earth--like a carpet or tent' before he laid the foundations of the world, to get rid of some of the rebellious angels, ie, demons.

If he had made a world without temptation, we would be automatons, and no free will. Oscar Wilde didn't want responsibility for his free-will for the opposite reason: "there's only one thing I can't resist; and that's a temptation." His hero is Eve. Or, later, Steve. We were created in the middle option of this.
 

rstrats

Active member
Interplanner,

I'm sorry, but I don't see where your post #13105 answers my 2 questions directed to you in my post #13097.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Interplanner,

I'm sorry, but I don't see where your post #13105 answers my 2 questions directed to you in my post #13097.


Well, no it is not still on him for the reason just given above "It is finished." What we have here is a transaction of infinite proportions, and I don't think any of us are in a position to say what it would "look" like for a God-man to bear that burden.

What Paul is saying in Rom 3 is that the demonstration of this was public. It is not abstract. It is not conceptual. It happened in space and time in 1st century Judea in the continuity of promises made as ancient as Gen 3 and occasionally repeated down through time.

What it consisted of was that a God-man of infinite innocence was made to be the one despised of all men and also the one rejected by God in place of all others. Beyond that, the proportions of the transaction get way beyond us. "He was made to be sin (or a sin-offering), so that we might gain the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Cor 5.

A few years ago, a British musician with a background from a minor sect wrote a song called "It was God They Should Have Crucified." He dwelt on the carpenter and how the carpenter should not have had to suffer what he did. Well, it's edgy, but in a way it clarifies what we are dealing with here, since it was God. But the piece was also flawed in that the artist was angry at God and saying God should have been killed. That is not the construct of the Gospel event at all. That kind of anger at God is due to modern idealism which has chosen to ignore human responsibility for evil in the world (and sometimes to deny that there is evil), either in the form of the first couple or in what many people do today.
 

alwight

New member
what's imperfect about this ? it might not make sense now, and i'm not a Bible thumping optimist by any stretch -

Hebrews 11:1 KJV - Hebrews 11:3 KJV -
You can't have it both ways, if "original sin" is the apologetics then the subsequent fall implies that a real imperfection now exists. But otoh if God is simply working in mysterious but perfect ways then you can't use that particular explanation. The ability to know this Godly mystery is not ours to know and clearly some would apparently just accept whatever that is without further question.
So which is it?
Is this the imperfect world it seems to be or a perfect mystery?

Given we don't actually know then why not endeavour to make it a better place rather than blindly accepting our supposed fate, good or bad?
Why, because in the end it's apparently all for the best, as some will say?
Go on pull the other one. ;)
Is that really a satisfactory way to go through this one life we know we have?
Why shouldn't we just presume that this life is as it seems to be, try to understand it and attempt to make a difference rather than resigning ourselves to a supposed mysterious fate?:think:
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
You can't have it both ways, if "original sin" is the apologetics then the subsequent fall implies that a real imperfection now exists. But otoh if God is simply working in mysterious but perfect ways then you can't use that particular explanation. The ability to know this Godly mystery is not ours to know and clearly some would apparently just accept whatever that is without further question.
So which is it?
Is this the imperfect world it seems to be or a perfect mystery?

Given we don't actually know then why not endeavour to make it a better place rather than blindly accepting our supposed fate, good or bad?
Why, because in the end it's apparently all for the best, as some will say?
Go on pull the other one. ;)
Is that really a satisfactory way to go through this one life we know we have?
Why shouldn't we just presume that this life is as it seems to be, try to understand it and attempt to make a difference rather than resigning ourselves to a supposed mysterious fate?:think:



I'm not sure where you think fatalism is validated by the Christian message. Do you mean mankind is so inclined to evil that it is hopeless? Do you mean evil was so inevitable before mankind was tempted that it is hopeless?

I won't diminish the force of evil. When Tolkien wrote LOTR, he had survived WW1 and some say WW2 started with Versaille itself, and many readers notice the unbearable length of slow evil in LOTR, with a bit of relief at Helm's Deep. But then there is final victory, isn't there? He and his pal Lewis had Christian hope; so they did not write like Steinbeck, Hemingway, Elliot, etc. (For more on this see the most recent lecture at The Trinity Forum "A Hobbit, A Wardrobe and a Great War"; it may still be airing on CSPAN2 this week).
 

alwight

New member
I'm not sure where you think fatalism is validated by the Christian message. Do you mean mankind is so inclined to evil that it is hopeless? Do you mean evil was so inevitable before mankind was tempted that it is hopeless?
I don't recall referring to evil as such. Perhaps, possibly, "evil" is a sub-section or a result of imperfection but for me it's just a relative opinion about a specific deed or thought, but its not something with an identity of its own.
The idea of what is "evil" is merely a subjective term.

I won't diminish the force of evil. When Tolkien wrote LOTR, he had survived WW1 and some say WW2 started with Versaille itself, and many readers notice the unbearable length of slow evil in LOTR, with a bit of relief at Helm's Deep. But then there is final victory, isn't there? He and his pal Lewis had Christian hope; so they did not write like Steinbeck, Hemingway, Elliot, etc. (For more on this see the most recent lecture at The Trinity Forum "A Hobbit, A Wardrobe and a Great War"; it may still be airing on CSPAN2 this week).
Yes I know that "evil" is rather a distinct entity in the LOTR, but that is only a fantasy, and yes for some people "evil" can seem all too real, but in the wholly natural world that I think this is, no such thing exists imo.
Tsumamis and earthquakes aren't "evil", they are natural and expected events on a natural world.
Humans live in an imperfect world and are imperfect creatures that which good and bad things may unfairly be expected to happen to them.
Without a presumption of God I presume there is no evil Satan either.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Perhaps you need to explain more Al-on-Wight. In your first line you refer to imperfection , sin and a fall.

Please define them.

[the quoter thing didn't work. I'm refering to # 13109]
 

alwight

New member
Perhaps you need to explain more Al-on-Wight. In your first line you refer to imperfection , sin and a fall.

Please define them.

[the quoter thing didn't work. I'm refering to # 13109]
Giving me homework to do rather than respond?
The reason the quoter thing didn't work for you was because you must have imperfectly formatted your post. If the format characters required are not in the perfect sequence and place then the software will not recognise it.
Why would I know much about sin and the fall other than it's Christian dogma?
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
All I can think is to be grateful not to believe in such a nasty, hateful, fearful demon-haunted fantasy world of the mind.

If christianity leads one to this way of thinking then it's just another reason not to join that rather mediocre club.

Stuart



Dear Stuart,

It's your choice Stuu, albeit a definitely preposterous, deadly choice. I know you're not going to heaven this time around. Your probably will go to Hell for a while. God needs to straighten you out. You'll get one more chance during your last lifetime, and you could end up being a atheist again then. That means going to Hell forever. You're being so careless in this lifetime that I think God will give you a long visit to Hell. I don't see any other place for you. But I don't decide or try to judge you. You'll probably get one more chance in 1,000 years from whenever you croak. You are so unintelligible now, that you don't know what decisions you are making. You need a dose of spirit and it looks like God is not giving it to you. If you don't get it this time around this time, you will probably be given a last chance 1000 some years from now. You will probably be a disrespectful atheist again, and you will end up burning in the Sun until it's demise and God will give you one of the other stars in this Universe and burn there also. You will burn forever, is what Revelation says. Oh well, it's your choice, so no one will convince you otherwise. I'm sorry for you Stuu. I can't believe people like you exist. Surprise, surprise, eh??!!

What A Wonderful Lord Jesus!!

Michael

:sigh: :nono: :devil: :madmad: :kookoo: :angel:
 
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MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear Michael,

I'm fully aware of your faith and I'm not here in order to disprove your god. I'm merely pointing out that we have the knowledge to explain so much in nature.

For instance, all the weather phenomena + earthquakes that you've mentioned have very obvious natural causes, which we understand, measure and can even predict to some degree of accuracy that is improving as the computational power of our equipment increases.

Don't you find it strange that tornadoes are only encountered in some parts of the world? Reliably only in those parts and never anywhere else.
Don't you find it strange that you god who is capable of a global flood simply refuses to combat the desertification by just a little bit of rain? How many people are miserably starving to death because of that...

I really hope that you will one day discover the extent of our understanding of nature and cease to attribute every single thing that happens to divine causes - it's just not necessary.

Cheers, Duke


Dear Duke,

No, I don't find it strange that God won't bring another global flood ever again here on Earth. He promised us all that He wouldn't do it. And tornadoes have to be at a certain latitude and longitude on the Earth. Tornadoes happen when cold air meets hot air. So certain nations get them also. We don't get many tornadoes in my neck of the woods because I'm right in the AZ Valley and the mountains don't allow for winds that break up because of them. God also does waterspouts. God also controls the tsunamis. And the Lord directly determines which area gets the tornado{es}. Sure, we can predict hopefully when this and that happens, but we're often wrong. We get near the temp., rain, storms, earthquakes, landslides and they are predictable by the computers they have and certain criteria that the meteorologists/weathermen use. We're wrong about most things, even the temperatures. Weathermen can only guess what the highs and lows will be by putting their info into them, and roughly finding out what their computers have detected, and when wind or rain will come. I live in the desert, so rain is scarce. What will happen is God doing what He will through His angels, and His servants. God controls ALL of IT!!

Peace Be Yours!

Michael

:angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9:
 
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patrick jane

BANNED
Banned

Dear Duke,

No, I don't find it strange that God won't bring another global flood ever again here on Earth. And tornadoes have to be at a certain latitude and longitude on the Earth. Tornadoes happen when cold air meets hot air. So certain nations get them also. We don't get many tornadoes in my neck of the woods because I'm right in the AZ Valley and the mountains don't allow for winds that break up because of them. God also does waterspouts. God also controls the tsunamis. And the Lord directly determines which area gets the tornado{es}. Sure, we can predict hopefully when this and that happens, but we're often wrong. We get near the temp., rain, storms, earthquakes. landslides and they are predictable by the computers they have and certain criteria that the meteorologists/weathermen use. We're wrong about most things, even the temperatures. Weathermen can only guess what the highs and lows will be by putting their info into them, and roughly finding out what their computers have detected, and when wind or rain will come. I live in the desert, so rain is scarce. What will happen is God doing what He will through His angels, and His servants. God controls ALL of IT!!

Peace Be Yours!

Michael

:angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9:

funky font !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Reincarnation is not, and never has been, the meaning of personal resurrection in the Bible.

It is appointed to man once to die, and after that the judgement. Christ has appeared and suffered to save mankind, and will appear again, not to save but judge. Get your business cleared up ahead of time. That is the sound of the NT Gospel. Hebrews 9:27-28.

God justifies those who believe on what Christ has done for them. He justifies them from their sins in his sight. Romans 3 and 5.

Michael has completely disqualified himself from Biblical theology by using the term reincarnation, and I don't think he's up to speed on relevant science about cosmology.




Dear Interplanner,

I'm just going to keep some things to myself, since they upset you and maybe everyone else. But I will tell you that reincarnation is a fact as written. "And the REST OF THE DEAD did not LIVE AGAIN until the thousand years were finished." See Rev. 20:5KJV.

You'll notice it says not LIVE AGAIN. You'll never understand what's going on because you're not ready to know. So, I will leave you to believe what you want. You'll find out when you face God and ask Him. Just ask Him, 'was Michael right?' There you go.

May God Give You Understanding And Wisdom,

Michael
 
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MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
funky font !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Dear patrick,

Thank you!! I'm glad you like it! It's just the beginning!!
And you are looking handsome in your Avatar, Twin Brother!!

Much Love, In Christ!!

Michael

:guitar: :singer: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9:

 
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MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
All I can think is to be grateful not to believe in such a nasty, hateful, fearful demon-haunted fantasy world of the mind.

If christianity leads one to this way of thinking then it's just another reason not to join that rather mediocre club.


Stuart

Dear Stuart,

It's quite fine if you already are a Christian. Yes, the stuff about the devil is true, whether you can acknowledge that or not. The devil isn't going to bug you 'cause he has you already. We're not all that 'lucky.' Instead of LOL, I will consider the plight you are in instead. I'm sorry for you Stuart. Just dwell on God and not the devil, and you'll be fine. No use giving that loser a second thought. And being Christian is not a mediocre club. Ask all of it's millions or more of it's members.

Praise God,

Michael
 
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