Creation vs. Evolution

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6days

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Who puts Niagara that short?
Gen. 6:13; Gen. 9:11
It would seem Niagara was something created post flood from draining glaciers
I've not heard that in 20 years of passive collecting information about things like this, it's always 9000 something. Biblical truth is not a separate kind about a separate world.
You have been VERY passive about it.
Here is a 3,000 year estimate...
http://creation.com/niagara-falls-and-the-bible
Or, the book 'The Global Flood' Bert Thompson PhD
 

MichaelCadry

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6days,
do you have time to deal with some of these questions:

why is the common sense dating of the start of Niagara falls in the 9000 range?

why is the same true of the collapse of Lake Morse at the end of the last major ice age (meaning, there was a ice formation beforehand)?

how much backstory does the literary term 'formless and void' have in Jer 4:23?

how can evolution be summarized as harmful when it is saying it results in the strongest surviving? please define your term?

what is your understanding of the event which resulted in the pocking and smattering of the face of the moon?


Dear Interplanner,

What are you asking 6days such a long list of questions not even you can answer all of? Jeremiah didn't actually see the earth when it was formless and void. He might have envisioned it or seen it in a dream, but he certainly did not see it with his own eyes. You know very well what I'm saying here.

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear Alwight,

How are you doin' buddy!! Missed you last night. I couldn't get on. Hope all is well with you! We had a terrible storm last night. It killed 12 people north of us. By the Arizona/Utah border, but still in AZ. Colorado City in AZ. Plus a city in Utah. The wind was incredible. And the rain came down in buckets, but not where I live. We just got a bit of drizzle, but you could see on TV how it was coming down downtown. Like I said, no one posts to me anymore, and I've got this thread to 13,000 posts, so I want to give this thread to 6days, if he'll take it. I've done all I can here and am expecting a nice Sept. So if people don't hear from me for 3 days, whatever. They can hear it on the news. I've given, and given, and given and everyone just takes and takes. I've outgrown this thread. I'm writing this on my post to you. You've been the best friend to me, so I hope it's okay!! Too bad everyone can't be like you!! Okay, I'll call it a night. You take wonderful care of yourself.

Best Of Blessings And Cheerio, Mate!

Michael
 

alwight

New member
Dear Alwight,

How are you doin' buddy!! Missed you last night. I couldn't get on. Hope all is well with you! We had a terrible storm last night. It killed 12 people north of us. By the Arizona/Utah border, but still in AZ. Colorado City in AZ. Plus a city in Utah. The wind was incredible. And the rain came down in buckets, but not where I live. We just got a bit of drizzle, but you could see on TV how it was coming down downtown. Like I said, no one posts to me anymore, and I've got this thread to 13,000 posts, so I want to give this thread to 6days, if he'll take it. I've done all I can here and am expecting a nice Sept. So if people don't hear from me for 3 days, whatever. They can hear it on the news. I've given, and given, and given and everyone just takes and takes. I've outgrown this thread. I'm writing this on my post to you. You've been the best friend to me, so I hope it's okay!! Too bad everyone can't be like you!! Okay, I'll call it a night. You take wonderful care of yourself.

Best Of Blessings And Cheerio, Mate!

Michael
I think you're a bit too nice Michael, I'm used to being able to take pot shots at fundies without worrying about hurting their feelings. ;)
If you don't have anything more to say in this thread then don't. You aren't expected to keep everyone happy or to say things that they want to hear, or even cheer on "your side". :)
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Dear Interplanner,

What are you asking 6days such a long list of questions not even you can answer all of? Jeremiah didn't actually see the earth when it was formless and void. He might have envisioned it or seen it in a dream, but he certainly did not see it with his own eyes. You know very well what I'm saying here.

Michael

The reason for asking those particular questions is that he is not understanding the one I'm asking. He still doesn't treat F&V correctly, nor the difference between 'ekpalai' and 'archeia' in 2 Pet 2&3. At least the KJV does!



You are very sincere, but if you have worked professionally in the languages, you know that the literary examples are the most valuable way to find out what kind of expression is being used. The Hebrew 'formless and void' only comes up twice in the OT. There is no backstory in Gen 1. But in Jer 4 there is. A culture, a people had been raised to a climax and then declined and now their capital city was F&V because they had turned away from God and rejected him. Therefore, I don't accept the idea that F&V in Gen 1 is just a material description of being flat or featureless.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
So my dear bible thumpers,
What's your quarrel with evolution?



One quarrel would be the presupposition that the world is a closed system of natural causes and effects. The only conclusion you can come to is that the storm Katrina and the Empire State Building are identical phenomenon. The Christian position is that there are many ongoing natural causes and effects but above and outside the system is an infinite, intelligent, personal God who created it and can interject things and act into it. That would not only result in creation itself but later miraculous events.

Sometimes both are involved at the same time. Apparently the earth and moon have their final form by way of a collision with 'Theia' (an interesting way to sneak the scent of God back into the picture; Theos is Greek for god.) The two then magically ended up in perfect orientation to each other and rotations etc. Happens all the time in car accidents on the road, doesn't it? But we do have the smattered face of the moon not mentioned in Gen 1, but possibly in Gen 6 in that the flood event is quite a cataclysm, so yes there was a collision or explosion.
 

alwight

New member
One quarrel would be the presupposition that the world is a closed system of natural causes and effects. The only conclusion you can come to is that the storm Katrina and the Empire State Building are identical phenomenon. The Christian position is that there are many ongoing natural causes and effects but above and outside the system is an infinite, intelligent, personal God who created it and can interject things and act into it. That would not only result in creation itself but later miraculous events.

Sometimes both are involved at the same time. Apparently the earth and moon have their final form by way of a collision with 'Theia' (an interesting way to sneak the scent of God back into the picture; Theos is Greek for god.) The two then magically ended up in perfect orientation to each other and rotations etc. Happens all the time in car accidents on the road, doesn't it? But we do have the smattered face of the moon not mentioned in Gen 1, but possibly in Gen 6 in that the flood event is quite a cataclysm, so yes there was a collision or explosion.
Couldn't you try to be a bit more specific about Darwinian evolution?
Darwin knew nothing about the Empire State Building of course and was simply attempting to explain the natural world by natural means alone. There being no perceived justification for including nor deliberately excluding (closing off) anything supernatural, gods or otherwise.
If something beyond the natural manages to produce a testable natural effect then so be it let's put it to the test.
However so far all of modern day life can be explained in terms of Darwinian Natural Selection. Making presuppositions of anything beyond the natural is not science nor particularly edifying imo.
 

TheDuke

New member
One quarrel would be the presupposition that the world is a closed system of natural causes and effects. The only conclusion you can come to is that the storm Katrina and the Empire State Building are identical phenomenon. The Christian position is that there are many ongoing natural causes and effects but above and outside the system is an infinite, intelligent, personal God who created it and can interject things and act into it. That would not only result in creation itself but later miraculous events.

Sometimes both are involved at the same time. Apparently the earth and moon have their final form by way of a collision with 'Theia' (an interesting way to sneak the scent of God back into the picture; Theos is Greek for god.) The two then magically ended up in perfect orientation to each other and rotations etc. Happens all the time in car accidents on the road, doesn't it? But we do have the smattered face of the moon not mentioned in Gen 1, but possibly in Gen 6 in that the flood event is quite a cataclysm, so yes there was a collision or explosion.

Thanks for the lengthy exposition!
I'm roughly aware of the christian tenets and as you specify they are concerned with all of nature, hence I cannot understand why exactly it's a battle against the theory of evolution that preoccupies the theists.
There are so many things in science that are barely reconcilable with scriptural literalism - why is evolution special???
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
There is the closed, naturalist presupposition on one hand. It is modern thinking. It started with Huxley, and Huxley pushed Darwin against his misgivings to publish. Darwin had those misgivings because of his Christian wife who showed him it would make people 'animal'. She was right. But that's what Huxley wanted. (You can follow some of this in the bio-pic CREATION).

Another factor would be the work of Archbishop Usher and his chronology. He determined that the earth must have been created in 4004 BC through Biblical genealogies. Thus there was not only a very young earth, but there was a sort of view that nothing else happened at all.

This does not answer such questions as: even if the week of creation was that recent, was the material of earth that recent?

What about gaps in genealogies where less significant people are deleted?

What about many worldwide deluge references that happen after the ice age in those accounts and often correspond to about 9000 years ago? If that's the flood of Noah, then we have to place Adam to Noah before that taking us back to maybe 15,000 years ago, which is the shortest range of much anthropology for homo sapiens. We're not talking about a conflict of millions of years discrepant but just a few thousand. Seen that way, there is "no final conflict" as Dr. Schaeffer would say.

Another thing not understood in Usher's day or even through much of the 1900s was the comparative cults around the area of Israel when Gen 1-11 was written. We now know that most had a cosmology in which there was a pre-existing condition before creation and it was chaos and/or needed to be stopped or defeated. The defeat and forming of this earth for mankind is 'creation.' Sometimes it was a huge creature, a lizard, and there are a couple references to this in Job or Psalms. Gen 1:2 refers to the earth being already 'formless and void' which is an expression about a condition that needed to be judged and destroyed by God and F&V is the residue of that.

What would surprise the neighbor religions and cultures is not that much so far; it would be that the LORD was the victor over that. That message was being spread around every traveler's campfire where Gen 1-11 was recited by Hebrews, if they were asked to tell the story of their people. Those cultures would hear that the LORD created this world and then Israel was rescued from Egypt and then were brought to the Canaanite cult area to stop its child-conception-and-sacrifice ritual.

The pre-existing topic is rarified and difficult to square away. Besides those comparative accounts, Job 38 refers to Satan already being his evil self before the earth was created and that God had to shake out the earth to get rid of him and his rebellious angels like a person shaking out a carpet or tent. Peter and Jude refer to rebellious angels being confined in blackest darkness in the universe, and guess how the earth is first described in Gen 1: dark, black, watery. In addition Peter says they were consigned to hell, but uses the Greek term 'tartarus' which is the place where Greek myth located evil super-beings before the creation of man. Was that simply to communicate to Greeks? To form a bond of understanding? Does it shows some credibility to that pre-historic understanding?

The NT does not hesitate to say that the universe is full of spiritual beings, entities, demons, and angels, and says that the existence of the church shows God's truth to these beings and that the Gospel can cause people to love each other across earthly differences, Eph 3:10.
 

DavisBJ

New member
One quarrel would be the presupposition that the world is a closed system of natural causes and effects. The only conclusion you can come to is that the storm Katrina and the Empire State Building are identical phenomenon. The Christian position is that there are many ongoing natural causes and effects but above and outside the system is an infinite, intelligent, personal God who created it and can interject things and act into it. That would not only result in creation itself but later miraculous events.

Sometimes both are involved at the same time. Apparently the earth and moon have their final form by way of a collision with 'Theia' (an interesting way to sneak the scent of God back into the picture; Theos is Greek for god.) The two then magically ended up in perfect orientation to each other and rotations etc. Happens all the time in car accidents on the road, doesn't it? But we do have the smattered face of the moon not mentioned in Gen 1, but possibly in Gen 6 in that the flood event is quite a cataclysm, so yes there was a collision or explosion.
If you would make your points more clear, it would facilitate the discussion. You make obscure mention of things like Katrina and the Empire State being identical, and something about the orientation and rotation of the earth and moon. Try to make your point clear enough that we can see the specifics of what it is you are pointing out or objecting to.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The 'Theia' theory is that an accident put the earth and moon in perfect alignment and rotation to result in the celestial mechanics we have today, suitable for human life as we know it. That's like saying you can have a Katrina storm and its outcome is identical to the production of the Empire State Building. It is nonsense.

In THE PRIVILEGED PLANET Gonzalez and Richards show some 20 improbabilities from several scientific disciplines about how our earth functions. The 00s it takes to quantify these improbabilities would fill a screen here; each of them would. Then, you have to factor in the coordination of all 20 to happen perfectly the first time and every time so humans can live here.

This does not happen by accident. Everything we know about accidental hits and collisions is Katrina. It is never Empire State Building.

The belief that we live--that this world is here in the form and function it now has--in a closed system of natural causes and effects is the biggest myth of our times. "Not a chance."
 

MichaelCadry

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LIFETIME MEMBER
I think you're a bit too nice Michael, I'm used to being able to take pot shots at fundies without worrying about hurting their feelings. ;)
If you don't have anything more to say in this thread then don't. You aren't expected to keep everyone happy or to say things that they want to hear, or even cheer on "your side". :)


Dear alwight,

You don't have to worry about hurting my feelings. I am strong. You think I'm TOO Nice. Now that's a good one. I'm not trying to keep everyone happy or say what they want to hear at all. I write what I write according to what I feel in my heart and mind. Not to cheer on my side either. But I am thankful for your genuine concern and caring. You're simply the BEST!!

Warmest Regards & Cheerio, Matey!!

Michael

:wave2: :thumb: :angel: :cloud9:
 
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