Creation vs. Evolution

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6days

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Did you just miss all the independent multiple methods of dating that meteor sample at 4.6 billion years old, that I posted earlier? Or are you ignoring the multiple lines of evidence that contradict you, so you can focus on one cherry picked method?

Meteor samples do consistently date near 4.6 billion..... but that consistently is inconsistent with multiple other lines of evidence. When we start with the inerrant truth of God's Word, rather than secular contradictory opinions, we can start trying to understand the world around us.

If anyone interested on the 4.6 billion year meteorites.....
Radioisotope Dating of Meteorites: V. Isochron Ages of Groups of Meteorites
https://answersingenesis.org/astron...meteorites-v-isochron-ages-groups-meteorites/
Part of the conclusion... " further studies are required to attempt to systematize what proportions of the isotopes in each radioisotope dating system measured today are due to inheritance from the “primordial material,” to accelerated radioisotope decay during the Flood, and mixing, additions and subtractions in the earth’s mantle and crust through earth history, particularly during the Day Three Great Upheaval and then subsequently during the Flood."
 

6days

New member
There is no fact that will change a Creationist's mind.
That could be stated a bit better. Creationists minds are no different than evolutionist minds, and they interpret evidence to fit their beliefs. But to re-state your claim.....
There are no facts that contradict God's Word.
 

Rosenritter

New member
"Because I say so".

Again, do you guys have anything new?
If you had paid any attention you would know what he was talking about. Then you might be useful to the conversation instead of spamming with your usual bombastic rhetoric.

Here, prove you paid attention. Why would carbon dating methods as used now be inaccurate under the Genesis model? Prove you know your opponent's reasoning instead of continued argument from ignorance.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Blah, blah. Blah, blah. That is what I hear from you Jose.

:chuckle: Great response....if you ever find yourself wondering why creationism has been 100% scientifically irrelevant for the last century or so, remember this exchange.

We have been over the details before, you just like to forget them.

Where? You and I never got into any "details" because you either bailed or responded in your "blah blah blah" manner. If that's your idea of "going over the details", then I truly pity you.

Circular reasoning is where you will stay.

And it's circular merely because you have said so. No need to do anything more..."Rosenritter" at Theologyonline.com has said it is so, thus it is so. :rolleyes:
 

Jose Fly

New member
If anyone interested on the 4.6 billion year meteorites.....
Radioisotope Dating of Meteorites: V. Isochron Ages of Groups of Meteorites
https://answersingenesis.org/astron...meteorites-v-isochron-ages-groups-meteorites/
Part of the conclusion... " further studies are required to attempt to systematize what proportions of the isotopes in each radioisotope dating system measured today are due to inheritance from the “primordial material,” to accelerated radioisotope decay during the Flood, and mixing, additions and subtractions in the earth’s mantle and crust through earth history, particularly during the Day Three Great Upheaval and then subsequently during the Flood."

Why are you citing an organization that you agreed is non-scientific?
 

Jose Fly

New member
If you had paid any attention you would know what he was talking about. Then you might be useful to the conversation instead of spamming with your usual bombastic rhetoric.

Do I need to pull up all the times just in the last few weeks that you and 6days have simply ignored posts, thereby ending conversations?

Why would carbon dating methods as used now be inaccurate under the Genesis model? Prove you know your opponent's reasoning instead of continued argument from ignorance.

First you need to explain what the "Genesis model" is.
 

gcthomas

New member
Meteor samples do consistently date near 4.6 billion..... but that consistently is inconsistent with multiple other lines of evidence. When we start with the inerrant truth of God's Word, rather than secular contradictory opinions, we can start trying to understand the world around us.

If anyone interested on the 4.6 billion year meteorites.....
Radioisotope Dating of Meteorites: V. Isochron Ages of Groups of Meteorites
https://answersingenesis.org/astron...meteorites-v-isochron-ages-groups-meteorites/
Part of the conclusion... " further studies are required to attempt to systematize what proportions of the isotopes in each radioisotope dating system measured today are due to inheritance from the “primordial material,” to accelerated radioisotope decay during the Flood, and mixing, additions and subtractions in the earth’s mantle and crust through earth history, particularly during the Day Three Great Upheaval and then subsequently during the Flood."

That paper is by someone who was once a graduate field and mining geologist. He has no expertise in radiodating, and RATE has no radiodating experts at all. Why should his unverified assertions be trusted?

There are no solid physical lines of evidence pointing to younger ages. Accelerated decay would have to have been a different amount for each different decay path, and different for the same decay path that appears in two methods. You would then also have to ignore the observed decay rates of elements seen in supernovae, the measured fine structure constant that is constant out to billions of light years. The rate of fusion in stars at different distances is exquisitely sensitive to these fundamental constants, yet they all burn with a ferocity that matches standard astrophysics, not your flood-physics assertions.

So, what solid physical lines of evidence point to younger ages? I'll show evidence of their falsity one by one. Bring them on.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Do I need to pull up all the times just in the last few weeks that you and 6days have simply ignored posts, thereby ending conversations?



First you need to explain what the "Genesis model" is.

You've been paying no attention for the last two months. Here, you claim you are clever and intelligent, prove it. Read five chapters and tell me what you've observed that might be relevant as to the reliability of carbon dating. Hint: if you know how Carbon dating works, it will help.
 

Jose Fly

New member
You've been paying no attention for the last two months.

Really? So what did I miss?

Here, you claim you are clever and intelligent, prove it. Read five chapters and tell me what you've observed that might be relevant as to the reliability of carbon dating. Hint: if you know how Carbon dating works, it will help.

First, I've never said anything about my intelligence or how clever I am. Second, assuming you mean the first 5 chapters of Genesis, I've read them several times and I don't recall anything in there about radiometric dating, C-14, or anything else relevant to the methodology. If you disagree, please post what you feel are the relevant passages.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Really? So what did I miss?



First, I've never said anything about my intelligence or how clever I am. Second, assuming you mean the first 5 chapters of Genesis, I've read them several times and I don't recall anything in there about radiometric dating, C-14, or anything else relevant to the methodology. If you disagree, please post what you feel are the relevant passages.
You obviously haven't paid any attention in the last two DAYS either.
 

6days

New member
So, what solid physical lines of evidence point to younger ages? I'll show evidence of their falsity one by one. Bring them on.
GC..... AGAIN, you still don't seem to understand what EVIDENCE is. Both old earth evolutionists and young earth Biblical creationists look at the exact same evidence. Evidence always needs interpreted. You BELIEVE your interpretation is correct...it isn't. EG. We both can look at the evidence of the moon. There are several lines of evidence from it that neatly fit the Biblical account. Meanwhile old earth evolutionists look at the same evidence and struggle with different ideas trying to fit things into their belief system.

Or we could look at comets... They neatly fit within young earth beliefs, yet evolutionists struggle to explain them. IE...'Maybe that happened, and maybe this happened'. We could look at sophisticated complex designs, evidence of our designer. We could look at backflips evolutionists sometimes do with radiometric dating....and assumptions involved. We could look at dinosaur soft tissue, the fossil record, sudden appearance in the fossil record. We could look at constellations that appear young in the distant universe. We could look at the young appearance of Pluto, and the decaying magnetic field of earth. We could examine 100 different evidences showing the young earth is consistent with God's Word. And above all else, we could examine God's Word to see if there is evidence of divine inspiration and inerrancy.

BTW... Your claim of showing falsity is silly. What you might show is your unwillingness to follow evidence that leads to our Creator.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You don't understand the first thing about the quantitative dating methods, so to hear that you don't trust them is of little interest, really.

Dear gcthomas,

Well, thanks for being so kind in your reply here. It is greatly appreciated. I know how you feel about your methods of dating. I still don't trust them. It's not that I'm trying to disagree. I didn't understand much about C-14 dating before either, but they had found it to be a poor indicator of times that were older than it could handle. I've been down the road of C-14, million and billions of years, etc. Do you regard how very many days that would be. I've also been down the road of the Piltdown man, Lucy, etc. and I don't trust Science when it comes to certain things. Otherwise, I welcome some aspects of Science. I like Astronomy the best, I think, and I am also partial to Chemistry.

From what I gather, our Lord says our Earth is roughly ~6,000 years old and I believe Him. He could easily have Created this Earth to be an aged planet when He made it. He made our Adam, not a baby, but instead as a young man. He didn't create eggs first, but instead He created older chickens. He created fruit trees not as saplings, but instead as older, fruit-bearing trees. Ah, I could go on, but no one seems to understand. God created an aged Earth. It's that simple. Why didn't God create Baby Adam instead of Young Man Adam?? Is that easier to understand? OK, I am just beating a dead horse here, so we'll all find out in the end. Gcthomas, I know you don't believe in God, as of late. Did your parents ever take you to Church when you were little?? I'm sorry you did not get to learn about Him when you were younger.

Generally yes, except for the unstable atoms, which decay into other elements in a predictable and completely understood quantum process. You are aware, are you not that quantum theory is by several orders of magnitude the most precise theory for making physical predictions that humanity has every produced? Your "I don't like it so it can't be true" argument doesn't make much headway against the huge number of experimental verifications of the theory.

Gcthomas, if you use faulty dating methods, whether similar or different, you can keep dating something over and over again and still come up with the same unreliable results. Try it with C-14 dating something older than it can handle. It's going to keep on giving you the same dating or age, even if it is believed to not be a faulty method. When someone tells me this Earth is 3 billion or even a billion years old, then that's where I cannot agree.

Don't you know that there has NEVER been an experiment whose result is clearly in disagreement with the calculations of Standard Model quantum theory? Never. Think about it, Michael. There is no experimental problem, no practical issue to resolve, no rough edges to the theory. Fantastic accuracy is what is left. Reliability. When you have tested something so much, there is nothing else to do but to trust it when pitted against your feebly fuzzy dislike of the implications.

You can dispute all you want, and scientists do that all the time. It is how Physics gets its feedback to constantly improve. Just because you cannot see how it can be done does not mean that measurements cannot be done, accurately and reliably. To deny deep time is to put yourself on the wrong side of history.

Well, I've already said all that I want to. There must be a missing link here or misinformation. I can handle that, but I cannot get past the point that God DOES make things that are Older in the first place. Do you understand what I mean. I have some other ideas, but I won't mention them, because you don't understand what I've said, that is even simpler. Enjoy your dating methods and we'll see what God has to say about it in the end. I'm sure there is a logical explanation. I don't mind agreeing to disagree. I won't change my stance and you won't either. That's just on one issue. There are plenty more things to discuss.

Best Wishes & Cheerio!!

Michael
 

gcthomas

New member
Okay, we have new assertions!
We could look at constellations that appear young in the distant universe.
Right. This is an odd one. Constellations are asterisms of nerby stars in our own galaxy, and we cannot see individual stars in the distant universe. You'll need to revisit this claim and correct it before it can be analysed.

We could look at the young appearance of Pluto,
Nope. Plain wrong here. There are regions that are young, and regions that are old, given the crater counts.

And while the consensus was that the ice viscosity and heat sources expected in Pluto probably ruled out surface recycling, I remember a paper from about five years ago that went into a lot of detail and calculations about the possibilities of significant surface layer convection.

and the decaying magnetic field of earth.
Again, wrong. There is as you know strong evidence for an oscillating/reversing magnetic field for the Earth. In any case, as the dipole moment of the Earth declines (the one mentioned in Hovind's 'work' for example) the energy is generally transferred into the quadrupole and higher order magnetic moments, so the overall strength of the field can remain largely unchanged even as the dipole moment experiences changes. (Hovind's model of the Earth's field as a simple electric current generated dipole field is not consistent with the observations and was rejected by science long ago in favour of the dynamo model).

You can try again, if you'd like.
 

redfern

Active member
Meteor samples do consistently date near 4.6 billion..... but that consistently is inconsistent with multiple other lines of evidence. When we start with the inerrant truth of God's Word, rather than secular contradictory opinions, we can start trying to understand the world around us.

If anyone interested on the 4.6 billion year meteorites.....
Radioisotope Dating of Meteorites: V. Isochron Ages of Groups of Meteorites
https://answersingenesis.org/astron...meteorites-v-isochron-ages-groups-meteorites/
Part of the conclusion... " further studies are required to attempt to systematize what proportions of the isotopes in each radioisotope dating system measured today are due to inheritance from the “primordial material,” to accelerated radioisotope decay during the Flood, and mixing, additions and subtractions in the earth’s mantle and crust through earth history, particularly during the Day Three Great Upheaval and then subsequently during the Flood."

I rather like this article from Snelling that 6days links to. Based on my brief experience with 6days, I am quite certain he has little to no technical understanding of what this article says, but instead found the brief part in the conclusion that sounded like it supported creationist ideas. Likewise, when the vast majority of the creationist readers at AIG read this article, their eyes glaze over, and they search until, like 6days, they see something that sounds profound that might support their position.

Let me walk through the abstract that Snelling gives, and try to put it in simpler terms for the non-scientists. I will highlight the more salient points in his abstract, and include relevant extracts from the body of the study as needed.

Abstract
Meteorites date the earth with a 4.55 ± 0.07 Ga Pb-Pb isochron called the geochron.

(Ga is shorthand for "billions of years of age)

Here in the first line of the abstract Snelling mentions a special type of radiometric dating that sidesteps most of the silly claims that scientists are too dense to consider how much daughter isotope was initially present. Here is the crux of what Wiki says on isochron dating:

<From Wiki:> Isochron dating is a common technique of radiometric dating and is applied to date certain events, such as crystallization, metamorphism, shock events, and differentiation of precursor melts, in the history of rocks. Isochron dating can be further separated into mineral isochron dating and whole rock isochron dating; both techniques are applied frequently to date terrestrial and also extraterrestrial rocks (meteorites). The advantage of isochron dating as compared to simple radiometric dating techniques is that no assumptions are needed about the initial amount of the daughter nuclide in the radioactive decay sequence. Indeed, the initial amount of the daughter product can be determined using isochron dating.
< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isochron_dating>

As I read the next several sentences in Snelling’s abstract, I was pleasantly surprised to see his candor in acknowledging much of what mainstream science has been saying for decades (and which has largely been opposed by ill-informed creationists).

<continuing with abstract:>They appear to consistently yield 4.55–4.57 Ga radioisotope ages, adding to the uniformitarians’ confidence in the radioisotope dating methods.

Snelling is simply acknowledging that the supporting data is there, like it or not. Isochron dating has firmly established a 4.5 Ga age for the solar system.

Many radioisotope dating studies of groups of asteroidal meteorites (chondrites, stony achondrites, pallasites and mesosiderites, and irons) in the last six decades have used the Rb-Sr, Sm-Nd, U-Th-Pb, Lu-Hf, Re-Os, Mn-Cr, and Hf-W methods to yield many isochron ages of groups of these meteorites from whole-rock samples, and mineral and other fractions. Such age data for groups of these meteorites were tabulated and plotted on frequency versus age histogram diagrams. They strongly cluster in the groups of chondrites, stony achondrites, and irons at 4.55–4.57 Ga, dominated by Pb-Pb, U-Pb, and Pb-Pb calibrated isochron ages, testimony to the Pb-Pb technique’s supremacy as the uniformitarians’ ultimate dating tool, which they consider very reliable.

Yet another confirmation that the data shows a 4.5 Ga for the solar system

These ages are often confirmed by Rb-Sr, Lu-Hf, Re-Os, and Sm-Nd isochron ages, but agreement could be due to calibration with the Pb-Pb system.

He acknowledges even more data confirming the age of the solar system.

There is also scattering of many Rb-Sr, Lu-Hf, Re-Os, Sm-Nd isochron ages, and a few Pb-Pb isochron ages, in most cases likely due to thermal disturbances resulting from impact cratering of the parent asteroids.

He acknowledges the data scattering he mentions here is likely due to “thermal disturbances resulting from impact cratering”. This is a case where direct radioactive decay dating would be not be dependable, but isochron dating is ideal for this situation.

Up to here, he has been pretty forthright in admitting that the dating of a variety of primordial materials by a variety of methods has uniformly pointed towards a 4.5 Ga age for the solar system. But these are pretty clearly not ages that creationists accept. So now, he does the creationist soft-shoe away from science and into religion. He makes this very explicit within the body of his study, when he says:

Any postulated naturalistic or uniformitarian history for the formation of the parent asteroids of these meteorites, and of course for the solar system itself, is completely invalidated by the divinely provided account of the six normal days of God creating supernaturally during the Creation Week.

From here on out, now that the wolf has discarded his sheep’s clothing, he must be using some aberrant laws of physics to explain how hundreds of millions of years of radioactive decay actually occur within just the Biblical global flood year.

Returning to the abstract:

No pattern was found in the isochron ages for these groups of meteorites similar to the systematic patterns of isochron ages found in Precambrian rock units during the RATE project, so there is no evidence of past accelerated radioisotope decay having occurred in these meteorites, and therefore on their parent asteroids. This is not as expected, yet it is the same for all meteorites so far studied. Thus it is argued that accelerated radioisotope decay must have only occurred on the earth, and only the 500–600 million years’ worth we have physical evidence for during the Flood. Otherwise, due to their 4.55–4.57 Ga “ages” these meteorites and their parent asteroids are regarded as originally representing “primordial material” that God made on Day One of the Creation Week, from which He made the non-earth portion of the solar system on Day Four, which is compatible with the Hebrew text of Genesis. Thus today’s measured radioisotope compositions of these meteorites could reflect a geochemical signature of that “primordial material,” which included atoms of all elemental isotopes. So if some or most of the measured daughter isotopes were already in these meteorites when they were formed on their parent asteroids, then their 4.55–4.57 Ga “ages” obtained by Pb-Pb, U-Pb, and Pb-Pb calibrated isochron age dating are likely not their true real-time ages, which according to the biblical paradigm is only about 6000 real-time years.

His final sentence in his abstract keeps the door open just a crack, in case studies of rocks on other bodies in the solar system don’t confirm his claims:

It is anticipated that further investigation of radioisotope ages data for Martian and lunar meteorites, for lunar rocks, and for rocks from every level in the earth’s geologic record, should enable these interim ideas to be further confirmed or modified.

This study is a classic case of the 6day’s approach to science – no matter how convincing the science is, no matter how much confirming data has been collected – when it doesn’t fit what you want to believe, trash it and just mindlessly resort to the chant “God’s Word says otherwise”, God’s Word says otherwise” , “God’s Word ,,,
 
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