Creation vs. Evolution II

Jose Fly

New member
It's very easy when you come up with the answer you want before you do the calculations.

Nice sound bite, but entirely lacking in substance.

Interestingly, you've basically accused an entire field of scientists of deliberate fraud. Do you have any actual evidence to back that up, or is it exactly as I called it....a mere sound bite?
 

Rosenritter

New member
The only question here is whether you're actually dumb enough to think that was the point of what I posted, or if you're just being ridiculously dishonest. Given your previous history, I'd say the latter is most likely.

Here is what I posted...
Look, for normal people this is a fairly simple question to answer. 6days is claiming that "Common ancestry is an idea that has not contributed to a single new technology...nor a single advancement in medicine."

Ok, how would we potentially falsify that claim? The answer is obvious....we present an example of evolutionary common ancestry contributing to technology or medicine, and if we find either the claim will have been proved false.

Now, why evolutionary common ancestry would contribute to technology is kind of a weird thing to ponder. Other than genetic algorithms, which are models of biological evolution used to generate solutions to things like engineering problems, I'm not sure how biological evolution would really even apply to "technology".

So that leaves us with seeing if evolutionary common ancestry has contributed to medical science. And as I've posted many times, THIS PAPER is a clear example of exactly that...

Protein Molecular Function Prediction by Bayesian Phylogenomics

Abstract

We present a statistical graphical model to infer specific molecular function for unannotated protein sequences using homology. Based on phylogenomic principles, SIFTER (Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships) accurately predicts molecular function for members of a protein family given a reconciled phylogeny and available function annotations, even when the data are sparse or noisy. Our method produced specific and consistent molecular function predictions across 100 Pfam families in comparison to the Gene Ontology annotation database, BLAST, GOtcha, and Orthostrapper. We performed a more detailed exploration of functional predictions on the adenosine-5′-monophosphate/adenosine deaminase family and the lactate/malate dehydrogenase family, in the former case comparing the predictions against a gold standard set of published functional characterizations. Given function annotations for 3% of the proteins in the deaminase family, SIFTER achieves 96% accuracy in predicting molecular function for experimentally characterized proteins as reported in the literature. The accuracy of SIFTER on this dataset is a significant improvement over other currently available methods such as BLAST (75%), GeneQuiz (64%), GOtcha (89%), and Orthostrapper (11%). We also experimentally characterized the adenosine deaminase from Plasmodium falciparum, confirming SIFTER's prediction. The results illustrate the predictive power of exploiting a statistical model of function evolution in phylogenomic problems. A software implementation of SIFTER is available from the authors.

So there we have it...they developed a statistical model based on evolutionary relationships between a wide variety of organisms and applied it to genetic data. And even when that data was "sparse or noisy", the model still correctly identified genetic function to a 96% degree of accuracy. Unless you want to be so absurd as to argue that genetic function isn't at all relevant to medical science, the only conclusion (for normal people) is that evolutionary common ancestry has clearly and directly contributed to medical science.

Thus the claim that "Common ancestry is an idea that has not contributed to a single new technology...nor a single advancement in medicine" is demonstrably false, and no amount of mindlessly repetitious "No it isn't....no it isn't....no it isn't..." changes that.

At least that's how it works in the normal world.​

Funny how you completely ignored the primary point (evolutionary common ancestry being the entire framework under which genetic function is discerned).

Well....not so much "funny" as fundamentally dishonest.

Apparently you didn't realize that "common ancestory belief" was completely unnecessary under that framework...
 

Rosenritter

New member
Nice sound bite, but entirely lacking in substance.

Interestingly, you've basically accused an entire field of scientists of deliberate fraud. Do you have any actual evidence to back that up, or is it exactly as I called it....a mere sound bite?

I recommend you read some of the posts here by 6Days. He's been pretty good about documentation of fraud with respect to dating mechanisms. About adjusting the dates after discovering tools in the area, etc etc etc. That subject has already been discussed, proved, and closed.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Apparently you didn't realize that "common ancestory belief" was completely unnecessary under that framework...

So now I'm left with a dilemma. Here I've posted a paper that specifically describes how evolutionary common ancestry is the framework under which genetic function is discerned...evidenced at the very least by the name of the model (SIFTER: Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships)...and your response is to actually claim that "common ancestry was completely unnecessary" to it.

My dilemma is this...either you're too dumb to understand the subject or you're so fundamentally dishonest that you are unable to discuss the subject objectively. How do I deal with such a person? Do I just say "You're an idiot" and walk away? Or do I document (again) your dishonesty and accurately label you a liar?

Decisions, decisions....
 

Jose Fly

New member
I recommend you read some of the posts here by 6Days. He's been pretty good about documentation of fraud with respect to dating mechanisms. About adjusting the dates after discovering tools in the area, etc etc etc. That subject has already been discussed, proved, and closed.

6days is a habitual, unrepentant liar. The question now is whether you are cut from the same cloth.
 

redfern

Active member
You forgot that there are more powerful forces at work breaking down much faster than any that by chance might build up.
But gcthomas says there are amino acids on comets. If, as you say, the forces that “break down” work faster than any that “build up”, then how did those amino acids get there? Maybe just a mistake on the part of the scientists who think they detected amino acids on comets? Or just for giggles God put some left-over amino acids on some nearby comets? Or maybe there are teeny gardens growing on the comets that we haven’t spotted yet?
 

gcthomas

New member
Have you taken 2 minutes to even read the account which you claim to criticize?

Yes.

There's three types of rock here that I'll point to. Igneous, sedimentary, and metamorphic. Which type are you questioning the creation of?

If you knew anything about the account that was referred to, then you'd know exactly what sort of rock was involved. See the photo above for a clue, if you are not going to do your own research.
 

gcthomas

New member
What assumptions, pray tell, are you using to calculate that 1500 m thickness of chalk would take millions of years to accumulate?

By that measure, my driveway went through several hundred thousand years of accumulation a weekend ago.

Your driveway is made from the accumulation of trillions of microscopic skeletons? Whoa!
 

gcthomas

New member
Perhaps you could explain the alleged proposed dilemma before I simply dismiss this as an inane stupid question?

Use your intellect to work it out. It's not difficult. How did such a rock formation form in your preferred imaginary flood scenario.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
The label formed itself, silly. It's much more plausible than a powerful intelligent being forming it. You're just believing in a bunch of fairy tales formed by primitive tribesmen who say that the label came from the Creator.

Nobody said that God couldn't be creating THROUGH evolution.

The ToE has nothing whatsoever to do with the existence of God
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Still waiting for someone to explain why this would create an alleged problem for the flood.

Tell me how, in a 6000 year old planet, that gigantic cliffs made up of the skeletons of microorganisms formed?


That kind of mass accumulation (not to mention uplift) takes an extraordinarily long amount of time to occur
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Our evolutionists here will never read that.

Read it. The author of that article doesn't even mention anything about the actual theories shared in the scientific community about how life might have begun. He says, "Evolutionists claim that single celled life sprang up spontaneously," and that's flat out wrong.


Leave it to another pro-Christian website to butcher simple scientific facts
 

6days

New member
Christianity is based on observed empirical evidence.

Luke 24:39-40 KJV
(39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
(40) And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 KJV
(17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
(18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
(52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

You're arguing a little too late that the Romans were just too lazy to produce a body to squelch an uprising that could destroy their empire.
Yes...Thanks
 

6days

New member
But gcthomas says there are amino acids on comets. ...
Well. amino acids are not life....and not even close.
Also..."Organic chemist William Bonner, Stanford Professor Emeritus...insists that you somehow have to explain chemical chirality first, (Why life is left handed aminos) and only then can you have life. He and others have hunted fruitlessly for 25 years for some such explanation on Earth, so they now speculate that the first homochiral molecules came from outer space. Perhaps a supernova explosion caused polarized light which caused an excess of one ‘hand’ in space, which was then carried by comets to Earth. In spite of all the huge problems with this idea, in the future NASA intends to look for homochiral molecules on a comet (and possibly on Mars). However, amino acids in meteorites have been shown to be ‘racemic’ (a 50:50 mix of both forms).
This huge expenditure of tax dollars is all based on fervent faith in evolution, and rejection of the obvious—that the machinery of life was originally created in a fully-functioning state"

http://creation.com/mirror-mirror-on-the-wallwhich-is-the-strangest-theory-of-all
 
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6days

New member
Read it. The author of that article doesn't even mention anything about the actual theories shared in the scientific community about how life might have begun. He says, "Evolutionists claim that single celled life sprang up spontaneously," and that's flat out wrong.
Abiogenesis is the belief that natural processes under the right conditions, life can arise 'spontaneously' from non-living matter. Evolutionists spend millions of dollars looking for evidence in space.....and in labs, trying to find evidence that supports their beliefs, of life from non life. For example...."University of Minnesota researchers unveil first artificial enzyme created by evolution in a test tube"
http://phys.org/news/2013-01-unveil-artificial-enzyme-evolution-tube.html
Isn't this artificial enzyme actually a creation of intelligent designers?
 

6days

New member
Tell me how, in a 6000 year old planet, that gigantic cliffs made up of the skeletons of microorganisms formed?
That kind of mass accumulation (not to mention uplift) takes an extraordinarily long amount of time to occur
"Million and millions of years" is the answer to everything for evolutionists. The cliffs though are mostly pure chalk, and evidence for rapid deposition. How would a sponge get slowly fossilized over the course of millions of years? Fossilization usually requires specific conditions, including rapid burial.
" larger inhabitants of the chalk sea such as sponges, shells, ammonites and urchins." http://www.dovermuseum.co.uk/Information-Resources/Articles--Factsheets/White-Cliffs-of-Dover.aspx
 
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