Creation vs. Evolution II

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Jonahdog

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I don't think you know what a 'quote mine' is Jonah.

The author of that article is an evolutionist admitting the fickle nature of fossil interpretations. There is no shame in honestly admitting that. :)

How about a cite to the entire article, let everyone read the entire paper. It is apparently only a 1/4 century old and from a magazine of general circulation, not a scientific journal. Or did you pick that particular sentence out of some creationist list of quote mines.
Although perhaps the question should be do you accept as gospel everything published in Discovery?
 

Stripe

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How about a cite to the entire article, let everyone read the entire paper. It is apparently only a 1/4 century old and from a magazine of general circulation, not a scientific journal. Or did you pick that particular sentence out of some creationist list of quote mines.
Although perhaps the question should be do you accept as gospel everything published in Discovery?

:darwinsm:

Darwinists think that if you quote something, you have to agree with everything anyone ever said from that source.

This is why evolutionists are mocked.
 

Jonahdog

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Is that your admission you don't have a clue if it's a quote mine? :) (It isn't)
Stripe's comment was correct.
Show me I am wrong, cite the entire article so everyone can read it.
Discover 8(11) pages 52-59 August 1990. Does not seem to be on the Discovery web site. But I am certain you must have the whole article, else what you posted would likely be a quote mine to support your need to believe in your deity and a literal Bible. So just cut and paste the article. I've found the quote on several creationist web sites, but only that one sentence. Given that Christians are honest I must assume that the entire 7 pages supports that one sentence.
Unless of course you are taking a lesson from Stripe and believe that lying for Jesus is a good thing.
 
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MichaelCadry

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Does Lennox compromise on scripture to try make it fit with mans opinions?

Of course science and scripture are always in harmony. But, don't mistake mans fallible opinions for the inerrant Word of God.


Hi 6days,

Good to see you here!! I can't say I have anything to add to your conversation with Jonahdog. I've got to take off and run to the store. Back in a bit. It's my thread so I can write what I want to.

Praise The Lord!!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear 6days,

Excuse me for going off-topic. I wonder why dodge and Interplanner hsven't posted for a bit. Everyone probably scared him away. Bummer!! And where is Hedshaker?? And gcthomas?! Eeeeek!!

Michael

:angel: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :angel: :guitar: :singer: :guitar: :singer:
 

Tyrathca

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"Everybody knows fossils are fickle; bones will sing any song you want to hear." From Discovery article 'Argument over a Woman', 1990.
So what you are saying (by way of irrelevant quote) is that you think fossils will never be able to be evidence for or against anything?

That seems a bit simple and limiting. It is data against which predictions can be measured against, just like anything else. That it is not a complete record of every organism in existence isn't news and doesn't make it useless anymore than any other data set which is not complete.
 

6days

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So what you are saying (by way of irrelevant quote) is that you think fossils will never be able to be evidence for or against anything?

That seems a bit simple and limiting. It is data against which predictions can be measured against, just like anything else. That it is not a complete record of every organism in existence isn't news and doesn't make it useless anymore than any other data set which is not complete.
The quote is interesting because he is admitting fossils can be interpreted so many ways. You might look at a fossil thinking it exhibits qualities to make it transitional. I might look at the same fossil, and think it is evidence of an Intelligent Designer creating creatures perfectly suited to a certain environment.

I think the fossil evidence generally, is awesome evidence of the Genesis creation and flood account.
 

Tyrathca

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The quote is interesting because he is admitting fossils can be interpreted so many ways.
What's interesting is you think a random quote from a magazine article (which given when it was published I doubt you've actually ever read) is somehow meaningful and important.

But sure that could be said of ANY data when only looking retrospectively. The difference between interpretation and science is the making of predictions which can then be tested against data not used to make the prediction (best done with new data ie newly found fossils in this case). This could be said of any data set or any field of science (the best known examples being in physics at the moment).
You might look at a fossil thinking it exhibits qualities to make it transitional. I might look at the same fossil, and think it is evidence of an Intelligent Designer creating creatures perfectly suited to a certain environment.
And which of these ways of thinking predicted the existence of fossils of extinct apes with varying degrees of human like characteristics?

If you want to talk science then you need to talk about predictions, all you care about is retrospectively re-interpreting data so it fits your preconceived world view.
I think the fossil evidence generally, is awesome evidence of the Genesis creation and flood account.
So why hasn't Genesis yielded any predictions which have later been found to match reality? What new discoveries has using Genesis found us?

Oh that's right, all it's ever done is looked at what real scientists doing real science have found and said "we could have predicted that with Genesis too!" except fort he fact they didn't until after it was found...
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear Tyrathca,

You have no clue that even the Great Flood even happened and you want to know more? How about Adam being created, and also Eve being created; and cows, apes, chickens and chimps. And elephants, rhinos, hippos, crocodiles, etc. So you think man evolved from a race of apes? How dumb are you? Would you expect every one to believe that? If God created man, and apes, then He had no reason to make them ancestors of each other. He created the animals before He created man and then, woman. It tells of this in the book of Genesis. Why would God make creatures that were half human and half ape/chimp? Oh yeah, I figure you don't believe in a God. That makes things hairy because of YOU and your thinking processes!! Wise up, instead, why don't you?

Praise God!!

Michael



Michael
 

Lon

Well-known member
What's interesting is you think a random quote from a magazine article (which given when it was published I doubt you've actually ever read) is somehow meaningful and important.

But sure that could be said of ANY data when only looking retrospectively. The difference between interpretation and science is the making of predictions which can then be tested against data not used to make the prediction (best done with new data ie newly found fossils in this case). This could be said of any data set or any field of science (the best known examples being in physics at the moment).
And which of these ways of thinking predicted the existence of fossils of extinct apes with varying degrees of human like characteristics?

If you want to talk science then you need to talk about predictions, all you care about is retrospectively re-interpreting data so it fits your preconceived world view.
So why hasn't Genesis yielded any predictions which have later been found to match reality? What new discoveries has using Genesis found us?

Oh that's right, all it's ever done is looked at what real scientists doing real science have found and said "we could have predicted that with Genesis too!" except fort he fact they didn't until after it was found...
:nono: Overstated case. All scientists were pretty much Christian scientists until rather recently in history and all would have attributed Bible knowledge (in fact many scientist also gave a good many scripture quotes) to their process. That means a good deal of science today was done by 'real' scientists who held to a Biblical model.

There seems to be a desire amongs 'atheist' scientists to separate science from Christianity but you'll never be able to do it because it is a part of all of our history. There are a good many scientists today that are Christians and are significantly contributing to science. Don't overtly ostracize those who are actually doing good in the world, even if you are trying to use science to separate yourself from God (it doesn't work that way, a good many Brits have tried. Failed).

There isn't a lot of interest in the Bible from science (archeology is yet), but the Bible will continue to help science 1) to challenge a few longheld science beliefs, which is a good thing, even from a science perspective 2) It will be used to help the world grab truth and embrace it (as it always has) and 3) It will inspire at least Christians, to wonder at the universe and treat it with awe and respect by those Christians who become scientists, thus it will give science a productive people who love science, if not only for the fewer reasons of their secular counterparts.

Genesis, I think still gives a good challenge to science to think of a sustainable echo system as it is portrayed in chapters 1 and 2. A primordial development is significantly problematic without sustainability: As I said earlier in thread, I have tried to produce a viable eco-system lately in a tank of water. Everything has to be set right or fish and frogs die off. Somehow, a perfect balance HAD to be set up on earth for life to sustain and flourish. Reading Genesis may very well lead a scientist to ask those kinds of questions and begin working on viability as well as help us do a better job ourselves doing such. Genesis is more the springboard to these discoveries.

Another? We find in Job two beasts that resemble dinosaurs and it raises the question of man and dinosaur coexistence. Were ALL dinosaurs wiped out at the time of Job?

These are all 'science' questions that stem from a Biblical context. Would a secular scientist likely begin toward these? Probably not, but what may be found from such discovery certainly can benefit the field, even if one doesn't buy into the God from those documents. The historical part alone is enough to contribute to science and it is odd to me that a scientist could learn from Mayans or Egyptians, but want to forgo reading the Bible as if THAT God is a scientific thread. How could He be? :idunno: I believe He exists. If I'm right, He is a friend to science. It makes no sense for one to become an atheist 'because of' science. It does make sense reversed, however, that one who wants no god, would hide behind science or anything else that would allow that denial.

An atheistic repainting is also failing to recognize that the field of science, is not, in fact, atheistic at all. There are a great many Christians in the field of science. I think a few atheists are overtly optimistic and overtly given to gross exaggeration, though there is a trend in academic science circles to oust Christians. Such is against at least our rules here in the U.S. and must stop. we don't allow discrimination based on religion here. Some would likely toss our Constitution.
 
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MichaelCadry

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:nono: Overstated case. All scientists were pretty much Christian scientists until rather recently in history and all would have attributed Bible knowledge (in fact many scientist also gave a good many scripture quotes) to their process. That means a good deal of science today was done by 'real' scientists who held to a Biblical model. There seems to be a desire amongs 'atheist' scientists to separate science from Christianity but you'll never be able to do it because it is a part of all of our history. There are a good many scientists today that are Christians and are significantly contributing to science. Don't overtly ostracize those who are actually doing good in the world, even if you are trying to use science to separate yourself from God (it doesn't work that way, the Brits have tried. Failed).

There isn't a lot of interest in the Bible for science, but it will help to continue to use it 1) to challenge a few longheld science beliefs as a good thing 2) It will be used to support good science as well as help the world grab truth and embrace it (as it always has) and 3) It will inspire at least Christians, to wonder at the universe and treat it with awe and respect by those scientists, thus it will give science a productive people who love science, if not only for the fewer reasons of their secular counterparts. Genesis, I think give a good challenge to science to think of a sustainable echo system as it portrays as well. As I said, I have tried to produce a viable eco-system lately in a tank of water. Everything has to be set right or fish and frogs die off. Somehow, a perfect balance HAD to be set up on earth for life to sustain and flourish. Reading Genesis may very well lead a scientist to ask those kinds of questions and begin working on viability as well as help us do a better job ourselves doing such. Genesis is more the springboard to these discoveries.

Another? We find in Job two beasts that resemble dinosaurs and it raises the question of man and dinosaur coexistence. Were ALL dinosaurs wiped out?

These are all 'science' questions that stem from a Biblical context. Would a secular scientist likely begin toward these? Probably not, but what may be found from such discovery certainly can benefit the field, even if one doesn't buy into the God from those documents. The historical part alone is enough to contribute to science and it is odd to me that a scientist could learn from Mayans or Egyptians, but want to forego reading the Bible as if THAT God is a scientific thread. How could He be? :idunno: I believe He exists. If I'm right, He is a friend to science. It makes no sense for one to become an atheist 'because of' science. It does make sense reversed, however, that one who wants no god, would hide behind science or anything else that would allow that denial.


Dear Lon,

Excellent post!! You're very right!! I'm so glad we had this time together!! Just to have a laugh or sing a song!! I know, I sound like Carol Burnett, eh?! Couldn't help myself. Thanks so much for ALWAYS being THERE!! You never cease to amaze me. What you've written is quite awesome and I am well pleased. I could not have done it better myself. I think you are incomparable. Like 6days! I couldn't ask for more!! Thanks so much Lon!!!!

Michael
 

Tyrathca

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:nono: Overstated case. All scientists were pretty much Christian scientists until rather recently in history and all would have attributed Bible knowledge (in fact many science publicastions came with scripture quotes) to their process.
I was under the impression that Christians were still the majority among scientists unless you were only taking about the most prestigious echelons. Am I wrong? Even looking back at science from last century I still fail to see where they claimed to base their science on the bible. Most Christian scientists did and do believe in evolution rather than a literal Genesis.

Scripture quotes is hardly the same thing. Note that when I said "real scientists" I didn't mean "atheist scientists" despite you assuming this.
That means a good deal of science today was done by 'real' scientists who held to a Biblical model
Really? Who were these scientists? Which century were they?

Christian + scientist =/= biblical model scientist.
There seems to be a desire amongs 'atheist' scientists to separate science from Christianity but you'll never be able to do it because it is a part of all of our history.
And biblical creationists seem to have a desire to separate "christian" scientists from evolution. The reality is that this is not the case and real scientists, regardless of religion, haven't used a literal Genesis for centuries because no one has managed to make any meaningful or useful predictions (i.e science) with it.
There are a good many scientists today that are Christians and are significantly contributing to science. Don't overtly ostracize those who are actually doing good in the world, even if you are trying to use science to separate yourself from God (it doesn't work that way, the Brits have tried. Failed).
As I said above I never meant real scientists to mean atheist scientists, i meant real scientists to mean people who do actual science. As convenient as it may have been for your worldview to dismiss this as an atheists vs christians dichotomy...

I have no idea what you were referring to with the Brits.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I was under the impression that Christians were still the majority among scientists...
As I said above I never meant real scientists to mean atheist scientists, i meant real scientists to mean people who do actual science. As convenient as it may have been for your worldview to dismiss this as an atheists vs christians dichotomy...
I think this a good concession. You already hit upon it in your previous post, but 'checking your work' is the job of the Bible, and for both of us. It is great for me to look at what I've held in the way of interpretation. It also helps at least that majority of scientists who are Christians, also check their interpretation of data as well.

In this case, the challenge is against Genesis. As I said, I think when hypothesizing about a 'primordial ooze,' Genesis would benefit the scientist to think more critically about a sustainable eco-system. To me, it naturally leads to a Designer, but as you said, the majority of scientists are Christian, so that isn't a problem. BUT I think Genesis does give a good pause for reworking some scientific models and I also see that as necessarily a good thing. -Lon
 

Tyrathca

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Dear Tyrathca,

You have no clue that even the Great Flood even happened and you want to know more? How about Adam being created, and also Eve being created; and cows, apes, chickens and chimps. And elephants, rhinos, hippos, crocodiles, etc.
I am well aware of Creationists claiming this. None of it is true and some of it (i.e. the flood) is in complete contradiction with the geological and fossil records (unless we invent magical sorting flood water, but then that makes Yahweh a trickster god)
So you think man evolved from a race of apes?
That is the best fit for the evidence and fossil finds and genetics in recent decades have matched that hypothesis.
How dumb are you?
Not nearly as dumb as you :)
Would you expect every one to believe that?
Almost all scientists do, perhaps I am asking to much of the intelligence and/or logic of the rest of humanity.
If God created man, and apes, then He had no reason to make them ancestors of each other. He created the animals before He created man and then, woman. It tells of this in the book of Genesis. Why would God make creatures that were half human and half ape/chimp?
I don't much care how you rationalise why your god caused reality to be the way it is.
Oh yeah, I figure you don't believe in a God. That makes things hairy because of YOU and your thinking processes!! Wise up, instead, why don't you?
:chuckle:
 
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