Creation vs. Evolution II

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Tyrathca

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I think this a good concession.
Is it really a concession when it was never a position I held? OK sure if it makes you feel better I have conceded that your straw-man version of me was wrong "you win" :)
You already hit upon it in your previous post, but 'checking your work' is the job of the Bible, and for both of us. It is great for me to look at what I've held in the way of interpretation. It also helps at least that majority of scientists who are Christians, also check their interpretation of data as well. -Lon
Uhhhh sure..... This doesn't really help the whole Genesis = science argument though so I'm not sure I see your point given the context of what I responded to and this thread in general :idunno:
 
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Lon

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Is it really a concession when it was never a position I held? OK sure if it makes you feel better I have conceded that your straw-man version of me was wrong "you win" :)
Er "granted" and in this case between us.
Uhhhh sure..... This doesn't really help the whole Genesis = science argument though so I'm not sure I see your point given the context of what I responded to and this thread in general :idunno:
Not only "isn't" but "can't" be presently in 'secular' space. No secular institution would allow a Christian to publish what scriptures might be involved or have driven his/her inquiry. Then we are penalized as null and void for the prohibition?

Read a few of the old quotes from the old scientists. You can barely see where scripture started and science ended with some of them, and including quotes from Genesis. And Genesis is what you were talking about.
 

6days

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Tyrathca said:
6days said:
The quote is interesting because he is admitting fossils can be interpreted so many ways.
What's interesting is you think a random quote from a magazine article (which given when it was published I doubt you've actually ever read) is somehow meaningful and important.

A single scientist making a claim would not be very meaningful, nor important. But, when numerous scientists say similar things, it does become more meaningful. What really shows the truth of that quote ('bones can sing any tune you want them too'), is when evidence bears its out. The examples are almost endless of an evolutionist making fantastic claims about a fossil, only to be disproven later by science.
Tyrathca said:
6days said:
You might look at a fossil thinking it exhibits qualities to make it transitional. I might look at the same fossil, and think it is evidence of an Intelligent Designer creating creatures perfectly suited to a certain environment.
And which of these ways of thinking predicted the existence of fossils of extinct apes with varying degrees of human like characteristics?

Again..... bones can sing any song you want them too.

There is a long history of bold transitional claims by evolutionists trying to make apes more human like..... or, humans more ape like. I'm sure you are aware of examples but can gladly discuss some if you wish.

Tyrathca said:
If you want to talk science then you need to talk about predictions, all you care about is retrospectively re-interpreting data so it fits your preconceived world view.
And that explains why evolutionists so often have egg on their face. They start with their preconceived world view, and end up making poor predictions (Junk DNA, pseudogenes, Neandertals, poor design arguments, Darwinius masillae. ETC ETC ETC)

Tyrathca said:
So why hasn't Genesis yielded any predictions which have later been found to match reality? What new discoveries has using Genesis found us?
You must get your incorrect info from atheist web sites? You might want to study a little history, or archaeology seeing how evidence keeps proving the naysayers wrong. Perhaps study a little evidence from genetics....or look at coal seams, polystrate fossils, warped and bent strata, sudden appearance, fossil grave yards etc etc etc to see how it matchs what we expect in the Biblical creation and flood models.
Tyrathca said:
Oh that's right, all it's ever done is looked at what real scientists doing real science have found and said "we could have predicted that with Genesis too!" except fort he fact they didn't until after it was found...

You are uniformed. And, you use illogical and circular arguments found on atheist websites like 'talkorigins'.

Modern science is largely the result of a belief in the Bible as literally true history. "Real science" was, and still is possible based on the belief that our universe has been formed in a rational way making science possible. Even evolutionists admit this like Loren Eiseley "The philosophy of experimental science … began its discoveries and made use of its methods in the faith, not the knowledge, that it was dealing with a rational universe controlled by a creator who did not act upon whim nor interfere with the forces He had set in operation… It is surely one of the curious paradoxes of history that science, which professionally has little to do with faith, owes its origins to an act of faith that the universe can be rationally interpreted, and that science today is sustained by that assumption."

BTW... If you are interested in predictions from Biblical creationists... don't just trust atheist web sites. If you google, you can easily find predictions from Biblical scientists.
 

Jose Fly

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The quote is interesting because he is admitting fossils can be interpreted so many ways. You might look at a fossil thinking it exhibits qualities to make it transitional. I might look at the same fossil, and think it is evidence of an Intelligent Designer creating creatures perfectly suited to a certain environment.

I think the fossil evidence generally, is awesome evidence of the Genesis creation and flood account.

Do you think all interpretations are equally valid?
 

Jose Fly

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There are a good many scientists today that are Christians and are significantly contributing to science. Don't overtly ostracize those who are actually doing good in the world, even if you are trying to use science to separate yourself from God (it doesn't work that way, a good many Brits have tried. Failed).

I wish you creationists would make up your minds. Half the time you are grousing about science being part of some sort of anti-God agenda, such that a lot of what they do and say can be dismissed as biased against the Bible.

Yet now you're saying there are all these Christians in science doing good work and contributing. Well, if that's the case, then if those Christian scientists have concluded that the earth is 4+ billion years old, there was no recent global flood, and all life on earth (humans included) shares a common evolutionary ancestry, is that at all meaningful and/or compelling to you?

Or do you only accept the conclusions of Christian scientists when they agree with what you already believed?
 

Jose Fly

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A single scientist making a claim would not be very meaningful, nor important. But, when numerous scientists say similar things, it does become more meaningful.

Really? So what do the vast majority of scientists say about 1) the age of the universe, 2) the age of the earth, 3) whether or not a recent global flood occurred, and 4) the origins of H. sapiens?
 

Lon

Well-known member
I wish you creationists would make up your minds. Half the time you are grousing about science being part of some sort of anti-God agenda, such that a lot of what they do and say can be dismissed as biased against the Bible.

Yet now you're saying there are all these Christians in science doing good work and contributing. Well, if that's the case, then if those Christian scientists have concluded that the earth is 4+ billion years old, there was no recent global flood, and all life on earth (humans included) shares a common evolutionary ancestry, is that at all meaningful and/or compelling to you?
Sure it is. Science is great though, it encourages questioning and inquiry. Only an atheist in scientific guise would be bothered?
Or do you only accept the conclusions of Christian scientists when they agree with what you already believed?
That's where two worlds necessarily collide. A bible literalist is going to always question what doesn't sync. Does science care? Apparently not, only when we are occasionally forced to dialogue or one of us comes to the other's website. How often does creationism or more specifically YEC actually come up at work for you? I'd guess, other than water cooler conversation, not much at all?
 

Jose Fly

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Sure it is.

Are those scientific conclusions compelling to you in a meaningful way, to the point where you figure they must be accurate?

That's where two worlds necessarily collide. A bible literalist is going to always question what doesn't sync. Does science care?

All that matters is how you do your work...how you collect your data, how you analyze it, and how you demonstrate how all that supports your conclusions.

How often does creationism or more specifically YEC actually come up at work for you? I'd guess, other than water cooler conversation, not much at all?

Never. Creationism is 100% scientifically irrelevant. Has been for well over a century.
 

Lon

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Are those scientific conclusions compelling to you in a meaningful way, to the point where you figure they must be accurate?
No, science isn't concerned with that. Theory is utilitarian in science, if it works, don't fix it. If it isn't applicable, there is no demand that comes with it. Until it 'matters' if I come from an ape, there is no necessity to be persuaded one way or the other. A scriptural view that man alone is made in the image of God, however, impacts the way we treat each other, treat our families, and live as a society.

All that matters is how you do your work...how you collect your data, how you analyze it, and how you demonstrate how all that supports your conclusions.
Which, as far as I understand, leaves a lot of this discussion and conflict of interest a bit more on the academic side.

Never. Creationism is 100% scientifically irrelevant. Has been for well over a century.
I think that true of you, not Christians who are also scientists. Relevancy in this case is in the eye of the beholder.
 

Jose Fly

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No, science isn't concerned with that.

What "that" are you referring to?

Theory is utilitarian in science, if it works, don't fix it. If it isn't applicable, there is no demand that comes with it. Until it 'matters' if I come from an ape, there is no necessity to be persuaded one way or the other.

Well yeah it matters; it's how we figure out what the functions of genetic sequences in the human genome.

A scriptural view that man alone is made in the image of God, however, impacts the way we treat each other, treat our families, and live as a society.

Irrelevant in science.

Which, as far as I understand, leaves a lot of this discussion and conflict of interest a bit more on the academic side.

Good. So for future reference, I can count on you to not switch your narrative to one where science is part of some sort of anti-God agenda?

I think that true of you, not Christians who are also scientists. Relevancy in this case is in the eye of the beholder.

Nope, sorry. As I described earlier, science is about results. Creationism hasn't produced a single scientific result in well over 100 years. It is absolutely irrelevant.
 

6days

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Do you think all interpretations are equally valid?
Obviously not.....
* Evolutionary interpretations have been consistently wrong.
* They have actually hindered medical progress.
* Evolutionary interpretations have resulted in a pygmy put in a zoo with a chimp.
* Evolutionary interpretations have resulted in scientific racism.
* Evolutionary interpretations have resulted in Australian aborigines being killed, stuffed and made into museum displays.
* Evolutionary interpretations / beliefs have resulted in scientific fraud.
* Evolutionary interpretations have contributed to the holocaust and genocides.

Meanwhile..... If a person starts with an interpretation based in the absolute truth of God's Word, we will understand that God created all humans as equals..... we are all one blood. Instead of believing sloppy design, we will look for purpose and design. God's Word tells us that we are "wonderfully made".
 

Lon

Well-known member
What "that" are you referring to?
I explained it in that paragraph.


Remember the Lego analogy? All living things have cells which is a relation, but that doesn't mean my greatest great uncle was a house-plant. Sharing commonality doesn't necessarily mean derivative to me. Something sets us apart from all creation called imago deo (image of God).
Genesis is either misleading or we translated Hebrew incorrectly, or we misinterpreted or science interpreted data incorrectly...

Irrelevant in science.
Perhaps but no scientist is merely interested in science and so whatever else comes to bear will bring meaning, significance, and purpose and so I applaud you discussing these matters on TOL even, as a scientist.



Good. So for future reference, I can count on you to not switch your narrative to one where science is part of some sort of anti-God agenda?
Yes but I think there are organizations piggy-backing on it for that agenda. Certainly it is the main-vehicle for atheists and perhaps that bothers you just as much as it does me.

Nope, sorry. As I described earlier, science is about results. Creationism hasn't produced a single scientific result in well over 100 years. It is absolutely irrelevant.
Well, accordingly, maybe it never did, or always did as the case may be (read AMR's article for instance).
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Obviously not.....
* Evolutionary interpretations have been consistently wrong.
* They have actually hindered medical progress.
* Evolutionary interpretations have resulted in a pygmy put in a zoo with a chimp.
* Evolutionary interpretations have resulted in scientific racism.
* Evolutionary interpretations have resulted in Australian aborigines being killed, stuffed and made into museum displays.
* Evolutionary interpretations / beliefs have resulted in scientific fraud.
* Evolutionary interpretations have contributed to the holocaust and genocides.

Meanwhile..... If a person starts with an interpretation based in the absolute truth of God's Word, we will understand that God created all humans as equals..... we are all one blood. Instead of believing sloppy design, we will look for purpose and design. God's Word tells us that we are "wonderfully made".

POTY nominee !!!
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear Lon,

I love your Post #175!! POTY nominee!! Even AMR noticed it. It was wonderful. Keep up the good work for our God!!

Praise God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost,

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear 6days,

I want you to know that I truly realize and appreciate tons the posts you've made also. There are far too many foes here compared to allies. It's too bad, really. The vultures fly above. Eeek! Well, I'm going to call it a night and get some sleep!! Thanks again, 6days!!

Michael
 

Cross Reference

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Your stomach has to produce a new layer of mucus every two weeks;
otherwise it will digest itself.

Ah, yes, evolution again bringing one of its corrections into play.
 

Jose Fly

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Remember the Lego analogy? All living things have cells which is a relation, but that doesn't mean my greatest great uncle was a house-plant. Sharing commonality doesn't necessarily mean derivative to me. Something sets us apart from all creation called imago deo (image of God).
Genesis is either misleading or we translated Hebrew incorrectly, or we misinterpreted or science interpreted data incorrectly...

First you said there was no need to be persuaded that you "come from an ape" until it mattered. I showed you how the understanding of evolutionary relationships between organisms (humans and apes included) is the basis for figuring out genetic function, thereby demonstrating how you "coming from an ape" does indeed matter.

Now it looks like you're trying to walk that back a bit. Is human-primate shared ancestry a conclusion that just isn't acceptable to you under any circumstances?

Perhaps but no scientist is merely interested in science and so whatever else comes to bear will bring meaning, significance, and purpose and so I applaud you discussing these matters on TOL even, as a scientist.

Ok then.

Yes but I think there are organizations piggy-backing on it for that agenda. Certainly it is the main-vehicle for atheists and perhaps that bothers you just as much as it does me.

I really don't care one way or the other. That's what makes me an apatheist.

Well, accordingly, maybe it never did, or always did as the case may be

The fact remains, creationism has been 100% scientifically irrelevant for well over a century now. What we conclude from that fact is up to each of us.

(read AMR's article for instance).

I didn't find that at all compelling. It's little more than an assertion of belief, followed by a demand that everyone else share it.
 
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