Maybe you would like to explain to us how God and Jesus made a deal with the devil.
The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Your problem is that you don't believe the Bible.
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Counterfeit Christianity
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Maybe you would like to explain to us how God and Jesus made a deal with the devil.
The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Your problem is that you don't believe the Bible.
ezra.eskriba
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You twist the gospel... EPH 1:4 states that you are "chosen" to be "holy".. but if you are still in your sins you are chosen instead to "perish"
--__
Chosen to perish for how long?
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The above "plainly teaching" is what happens when one has such a low view of the Scripture.
If you would ever stop to consider the whole counsel of Scripture, reconciling the same, you would discover the explanation of 1 John 2:2 is this:
"He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours [the Jewish nation's] only, but also for the sins of [the elect from every nation in] the whole world." Elsewhere the apostle clearly uses parallel expressions in precisely this sense: " . . . that Jesus should die for that nation; and not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad" (John 11:51-52).
For you, "world", "all", are wooden when it suits you. Not unexpected, given...
Robert Pate said:
If you are going to hold yourself forth as a teacher of Holy Writ it would behoove you to at least understand its Author and the Superintendent of its writers. :AMR:
AMR
It appears that you would like to write your own Bible.
Where is says "World", you could add the word elect.
Where is says "Propitiation for our sin" You could add for the elect of every nation.
There would be endless possibilities in your version of the Bible.
ezra.eskriba
New member
God forgave the sins of everyone, but it doesnt mean that everyone will be saved. God is a great and awesome God. He is just in everything he does and compationate. Why would he forgive a certain group or individual only?
Remember what is written about the unmerciful servant, is he not forgiven? But the way he acted to others disqualified him from being saved.
How about the bread and water for each man's table? Didn't God provides? Even beggars have food to eat. Even the birds of the air He provides at the right time. The elect are those whom God have chosen predestined to receive Gods salvation. Both good and evil people will be ressurected in the last days… Then he will separate the two. The elect and those who are not.
When Christ died on the cross, he forgave all sins of man. And I believe he dwells in us thru the Holy Spirit. That makes us holy and keeps us away from unrighteous acts.But if we follow the cravings and sinful nature of our body then it separates us from God and Christ, the Holy Spirit leaves and we will die from our sins. And that is also why there is repentance so that God's spirit dwells in us.
I dont believe that God didn't forgave us all. How can the Lord judge thru unfairness? And that is why there is free will. When we all sin since the time of adam we all become the enemies of God. Thru Christ we have peace and thru him there is pardon. How can I save myself from the coming wrath? But thanks be to God for Christ dwells in me.
Mr Religion has left the building.
He frequently leaves the building when it gets to hot.
Ask Mr. Religion
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It is gratifying to see you finally qualifying what you really mean, by "whosoever"...
More strictly, I regularly affirm that any and all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved, not turned away, and kept until they come into their final glory.
The fundamental area of disagreement between you and your ilk, and me and mine, concerns the actual state of all who are born in Adam. You and yours presume some residual "seed" of grace remains that gives those in Adam the moral ability to choose wisely, a "seed" also known as the Romanist originated of prevenient grace.
Accordingly, per your view, man is not really so fallen in sin from the sin of Adam that he possesses absolutely no moral ability to choose wisely. Rather man, "who by their own free will" is still able to choose rightly when hearing the Gospel. All of which means that when someone asks you why you of your "own free will" made the right choice, you are compelled to answer something along the lines that implies you were wiser, you were more discerning, you more willing, than those that chose wrongly. There are just too many personal pronouns in such a view that accord it a position contrary to the denunciations of works and reason to boast from Scripture in the making of God a debtor in such a view as yours.
As for me and mine, what fallen in Adam man ought to do does not imply man can do. See also here. We Reformed happen to trust that the full counsel of infallible and inerrant Scripture supports the view of the state of those in Adam as having no moral ability to choose wisely lest God gives them that very ability beforehand: Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8:21, Jeremiah 17:9, Psalm 22:29, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Job 14:4, Job 15:14-16, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6-7, Jeremiah 13:23, Jeremiah 17:9, 2 Chronicles 6:36, John 3:3, John 3:19, John 6:44, John 6:65, John 8:44, Romans 3:9-18, Romans 5:12, Romans 5:18-19, Romans 6:20, Romans 7:18, Romans 7:23-24, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-3, Ephesians 4:18, 2 Timothy 2:26-26, 1 John 3:4, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, Titus 3:3.
Am I running and hiding? Unfortunately the seven previous challenges to you from me for a One-on-One here over the past seven years have been deleted, wherein you retreated from said challenges under the cover of how it would, ahem, "waste your time". When you are willing and able to stand still in one place long enough—versus starting yet another drive-by redundant thread—to put your views to direct and solitary cross-examination, my challenge remains. I predict you will ignore this challenge under cover of all manner of self-righteous excuses, thereby substantiating my claim you are but a poseur unable to withstand examination of someone well within your weight class.
So, borrowing from your own words, Robert Pate has left the building. He frequently leaves the building when it gets to hot.
:AMR:
AMR
{in the above quote the emphasis is mine}
More strictly, I regularly affirm that any and all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved, not turned away, and kept until they come into their final glory.
The fundamental area of disagreement between you and your ilk, and me and mine, concerns the actual state of all who are born in Adam. You and yours presume some residual "seed" of grace remains that gives those in Adam the moral ability to choose wisely, a "seed" also known as the Romanist originated of prevenient grace.
Accordingly, per your view, man is not really so fallen in sin from the sin of Adam that he possesses absolutely no moral ability to choose wisely. Rather man, "who by their own free will" is still able to choose rightly when hearing the Gospel. All of which means that when someone asks you why you of your "own free will" made the right choice, you are compelled to answer something along the lines that implies you were wiser, you were more discerning, you more willing, than those that chose wrongly. There are just too many personal pronouns in such a view that accord it a position contrary to the denunciations of works and reason to boast from Scripture in the making of God a debtor in such a view as yours.
As for me and mine, what fallen in Adam man ought to do does not imply man can do. See also here. We Reformed happen to trust that the full counsel of infallible and inerrant Scripture supports the view of the state of those in Adam as having no moral ability to choose wisely lest God gives them that very ability beforehand: Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8:21, Jeremiah 17:9, Psalm 22:29, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Job 14:4, Job 15:14-16, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6-7, Jeremiah 13:23, Jeremiah 17:9, 2 Chronicles 6:36, John 3:3, John 3:19, John 6:44, John 6:65, John 8:44, Romans 3:9-18, Romans 5:12, Romans 5:18-19, Romans 6:20, Romans 7:18, Romans 7:23-24, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-3, Ephesians 4:18, 2 Timothy 2:26-26, 1 John 3:4, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, Titus 3:3.
Am I running and hiding? Unfortunately the seven previous challenges to you from me for a One-on-One here over the past seven years have been deleted, wherein you retreated from said challenges under the cover of how it would, ahem, "waste your time". When you are willing and able to stand still in one place long enough—versus starting yet another drive-by redundant thread—to put your views to direct and solitary cross-examination, my challenge remains. I predict you will ignore this challenge under cover of all manner of self-righteous excuses, thereby substantiating my claim you are but a poseur unable to withstand examination of someone well within your weight class.
So, borrowing from your own words, Robert Pate has left the building. He frequently leaves the building when it gets to hot.
:AMR:
AMR
Daniel1769
New member
I never got an answer from Calvinists about why Jesus wanted Paul and others to preach the Gospel. If everyone is predestined to heaven or hell, why preach the Gospel at all? If you're elected, you'll be elected either way, and if not you won't.
Calvinism is utter and total nonsense. That's why it didn't exist until the mass murderer and tyrant John Calvin made it up and killed anyone who disagreed. Total, unequivocal nonsense.
Calvinism is utter and total nonsense. That's why it didn't exist until the mass murderer and tyrant John Calvin made it up and killed anyone who disagreed. Total, unequivocal nonsense.
beloved57
Well-known member
Why Preach the Gospel if none were Elected to Heaven and Predestined to Be conformed to the image of God's Son Rom 8:28-30 if not for that there's no good news to Proclaim.
If you could just explain a couple of scriptures.
"That he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have ALL MEN to be saved" 1 Timothy 2:3, 4.
When you get through with those I have about 75 other ones.
Ask Mr. Religion
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You have been given this answer, but perhaps under a different username?
God ordains the means towards His ends. The means are the foolishness of preaching ordinarily by which His children are brought into the Kingdom. We are admonished to preach the Good News promiscuously for this very reason.
The rest of your emotional screed is actually not worthy of a response for it reeks of the usual genetic fallacies of the rabid anti-Calvinist and is the subject of much humor:
View attachment 21264
[Click to Enlarge]
Moreover, it is a topic no Calvinist should be adverse to answering:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4403037#post4403037
View attachment 21264
AMR
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http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4573051#post4573051
Q.E.D.
Thank you for that.
AMR
Q.E.D.
Thank you for that.
AMR
beloved57
Well-known member
You have not explained those scriptures, you don't believe them or understand them, you just quote them.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Redundant as usual, Robert.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4573212#post4573212
AMR
You apparently have men's persons in admiration.
Who are all of those guys on the bottom of your page?
Ask Mr. Religion
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When you are unable to provide anything of substance in defense of your views versus my detailed responses this is all you have to offer?
Fortunately, unlike yourself...
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4299659#post4299659
...I do not respect heretics:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4301244#post4301244
Run away with more one-liners, Robert. When things get hot, this is your usual tactic:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4573051#post4573051
Beam. Eye. Remove it.
AMR
Are all of those guys on the bottom of your page your mentors?
Are you saying that Paul was redundant?
ezra.eskriba
New member
No you are in error of scripture. God wanted everyone to be saved yet many are not willing.
Acts 17:24-31
24 The God who made the world and everything in it, who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live
in temples made by human hands,
25 nor is he served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives life and breath
and everything to everyone.
26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their
set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live,
27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is
not far from each one of us.
28 For in him we live and move about and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we too
are his offspring.’
29 So since we are God’s offspring, we should not think the deity is like gold or silver or stone,
an image made by human skill and imagination.
30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people
everywhere to repent,
31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom
he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
24 The God who made the world and everything in it, who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live
in temples made by human hands,
25 nor is he served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives life and breath
and everything to everyone.
26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their
set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live,
27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is
not far from each one of us.
28 For in him we live and move about and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we too
are his offspring.’
29 So since we are God’s offspring, we should not think the deity is like gold or silver or stone,
an image made by human skill and imagination.
30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people
everywhere to repent,
31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom
he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
Look at verse 30... "he now commands all people everywhere to repent"
God gave everyone and all of us free will. The chosen one's and the elect are those who are willing to obey and worship him.. otherwise to perish at that appointed time!
and again as mentioned in the gospel of Luke
Luke 13:34
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee;
how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under
her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me,
until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee;
how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under
her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me,
until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
The scripture is very clear that God wanted all man to be saved.
And this is how we know those who are chosen, the elect and the saints of God:
1 JOHN 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the
devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Watch your life and doctrine closely.. there are still other sheeps that needs to be gathered and come to the knowledge of him. Anyone who belongs to God and of Christ is righteous and walks as Jesus did.
All glory and praise belong to God and Him alone!