heir
TOL Subscriber
saved and lost. We're one or the other.
There's no point in Paul's preaching the gospel 'cept to stablish one in the faith Romans 1:11-16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV
Could God forgive without crucifixion?
- Thread starter Predi
- Start date
heir
TOL Subscriber
:up: That's the pattern for forgiving one another. Why people who are supposed to understand 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV keep running to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John for their pattern is usually because of what their favorite teachers have wrongly taught them.
Predi
New member
heir
TOL Subscriber
Sure he did! You were arguing that Paul didn't preach that man can be saved and that's not true at all. That's why I said what I did. You want to talk mystery? Let's go!
Predi
New member
What about these Christians' families and friends?
Predi
New member
heir
TOL Subscriber
Another time am I getting confused with someone else here? I never said that
You said Paul was not worried about other's salvation. Why did he want to see the Romans so bad?
Ask Mr. Religion
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1. God exists. (Gen. 1:1)
2. God is infinite. (Psalm 90:2, 147:5; Jer. 23:24)
3. God is holy. (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8)
4. God is righteous. (Neh. 9:32-33; 1 Thess. 1:6)
5. Therefore, God is infinitely holy and just.
6. Furthermore, God speaks out of the character of who He is. (Matt. 12:34)
7. God spoke the Law. (Ex. 20:1-17)
8. Therefore, the Law is in the heart of God and is a reflection of God's character since it is Holy and Good. (Rom. 7:12)
9. Furthermore, to break the Law of God is to offend Him since it is His Law that we break. This sin results in an infinite offense because God is infinite and His wrath against sin is infinite, thus, the payment made by the reprobate must be unending.
10. Furthermore, it is also right that God punish the Law breaker. To not punish the Law breaker (sinner) is to allow an offense against His holiness to be ignored. (Amos 2:4; Rom. 4:15; Ex. 23:7; Ex. 34:7; Ps. 5:4-6; Rom. 2:5-6)
11. God says that the person who sins must die (be punished). The wages of sin is death. (Eze. 18:4; Rom. 6:23)
12. The sinner needs to escape the righteous judgment of God or he will face damnation. (Rom. 1:18; Matt. 25:46)
13. But, no sinner can undo an infinite offense since to please God and make things right, he must obey the Law, which is the standard of God's righteous character. (Gal. 2:16, 2:21)
14. But the sinner cannot fulfill the law because he is sinful (in the flesh). (Rom. 8:3)
15. Since the sinner cannot fulfill the law and satisfy God, it follows that only God can do this.
16. Jesus is God in flesh. (John 1:1, 1:14; Col. 2:9)
18. The substitute could not be an animal. (Heb. 10:4)
19. Neither could an angel be the substitute, for the substitute must take upon himself human nature. (Heb. 2:14)
20. No sinner could atone for his fellow sinners. (Psa. 49:7–8).
21. It was only God Himself who could be the exact, perfect and proper substitute to atone for the sins of His people, and completely satisfy the vindication of His justice and righteousness, and thus render man acceptable in His sight.
22. Jesus was also a man under the Law. (1 Tim. 2:5; Gal. 4:5-6)
23. Since then the children share in flesh and blood, Jesus, Himself, likewise partook of the same, that through death he might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.
24. Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (Heb. 2:14–17)
25. Jesus Christ alone could be the fitting or proper high priest. (Heb. 7:26)
26. The sinlessness of the substitute is necessary. (2 Cor. 5:21)
27. Therefore, Jesus became sin for us and bore our sins unto death in His body on the cross, which revealed the specific penalty required for sin, thus fulfilling the Law. (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24; Rom. 3:24–26; Rom. 8:3-4)
28. The gift is valued according to the altar on which it is presented. Christ offered Himself through the eternal Spirit (Heb. 9:14), that is to say, He offered His human nature on the altar of His divine nature. His divine nature being eternal, His offering possesses an eternal quality. Hence, although Christ did not sacrifice Himself eternally, He nevertheless offered an eternal sacrifice to satisfy divine justice.
29. Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law, but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place. (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:13; Eph. 5:2)
30. Finally, it follows from the above that a person’s duty is to believe, claiming Christ’s atoning sacrifice as their own in order to be declared righteous before God. Such a true believer will be known from their works.
AMR
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Progress.....
Progress.....
I think some are starting to lean towards some kind of Universalism in some places. Also, even more so....some are moving more towards a 'conditional immortality' view, rather than 'eternal conscious torment' (ECT) in hell.
A more important question back to the thread-title question, is "what is required to receive forgiveness from God?". It appears the 'crucifixion' is only a historical/conceptual reference point of Jesus making some kind of atonement or reconciliation upon that 'cross', and a whole theology of 'redemption' based on the cross, mostly from Paul's letters, or those ascribed to him. The cross is therefore only a 'symbol' upon which certain meanings are placed, depending on what is attached to it, and HOW that's interpreted.
Progress.....
I think some are starting to lean towards some kind of Universalism in some places. Also, even more so....some are moving more towards a 'conditional immortality' view, rather than 'eternal conscious torment' (ECT) in hell.
A more important question back to the thread-title question, is "what is required to receive forgiveness from God?". It appears the 'crucifixion' is only a historical/conceptual reference point of Jesus making some kind of atonement or reconciliation upon that 'cross', and a whole theology of 'redemption' based on the cross, mostly from Paul's letters, or those ascribed to him. The cross is therefore only a 'symbol' upon which certain meanings are placed, depending on what is attached to it, and HOW that's interpreted.
Predi,
Why bother asking questions if you aren't going to think through the answers given to you?
Since you are effectively ignoring my answer, answer your own question...
Why did Jesus have to die? Why couldn't/didn't God just forgive everyone and be done with it?
Resting in Him,
Clete
Why bother asking questions if you aren't going to think through the answers given to you?
Since you are effectively ignoring my answer, answer your own question...
Why did Jesus have to die? Why couldn't/didn't God just forgive everyone and be done with it?
Resting in Him,
Clete
To answer the question reflected in the title of this thread, I think Scriptures point to the direction that Jesus had to die so all sins could be forgiven.
1. When Adam sinned, an animal died that same day (Gen 3:21). And Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).
2. In the old covenant, sin is forgiven, after the priest has made atonement for the sinner (Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 19:22; Num 15:25, 28). And it was on the cross where atonement / reconciliation was made (Rom 5:10; 2 Cor 5:18, 19. In the NT, reconciliation and atonement are both from the Greek καταλλαγῆ).
3. Christ said His blood is shed for forgiveness of sins (Matt 26:28).
4. Paul said redemption is through the blood of Christ, and redemption is forgiveness (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14).
5. In Hebrews, without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, and it was Christ's blood that was shed. Heb 9:22, 26.
6. In Revelation, Jesus' blood washed us clean from sin. Rev 1:5
7. And to top it all, in the New Covenant, with all sins forgiven on the cross, God remembers our sins NO MORE. Col 2:13; Heb 10:16, 17
But we still sin. The sin committed now, having been forgiven on the cross, is NOT imputed / counted against us (2 Cor 5:18, 19). This is God's act through Christ of continually justifying us because Jesus was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).
But the act of sinning reminds the person, having been admonished to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), that he has not overcome the evil of sinning yet. He has to overcome as Jesus Himself has overcome. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.
1. When Adam sinned, an animal died that same day (Gen 3:21). And Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).
2. In the old covenant, sin is forgiven, after the priest has made atonement for the sinner (Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 19:22; Num 15:25, 28). And it was on the cross where atonement / reconciliation was made (Rom 5:10; 2 Cor 5:18, 19. In the NT, reconciliation and atonement are both from the Greek καταλλαγῆ).
3. Christ said His blood is shed for forgiveness of sins (Matt 26:28).
4. Paul said redemption is through the blood of Christ, and redemption is forgiveness (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14).
5. In Hebrews, without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, and it was Christ's blood that was shed. Heb 9:22, 26.
6. In Revelation, Jesus' blood washed us clean from sin. Rev 1:5
7. And to top it all, in the New Covenant, with all sins forgiven on the cross, God remembers our sins NO MORE. Col 2:13; Heb 10:16, 17
But we still sin. The sin committed now, having been forgiven on the cross, is NOT imputed / counted against us (2 Cor 5:18, 19). This is God's act through Christ of continually justifying us because Jesus was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).
But the act of sinning reminds the person, having been admonished to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), that he has not overcome the evil of sinning yet. He has to overcome as Jesus Himself has overcome. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.
| KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. |
you are not reading it properly
-forgiveness is due to His grace
And only those whose names are found written in the book of life will be allowed into the heavenly portals.
| KJV Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. |
On the other hand, all those not found written in the book of life their destination is the lake of fire.
| KJV Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. |
Did I not?
| KJV Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; KJV Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins |
Looks more like I did. Read again.
genuineoriginal
New member
Not quite.
The verse is not stating that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
By comparing these three verses, we can see that it is the book of life that is from the foundation of the world and that the book of life is now the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 13:8 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. |
Revelation 17:8 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. |
Revelation 21:27 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. |
Rev 13:8 speaks of the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 17:8 tells us that the writing of names in the book of life is from the foundation of the world.
Rev 21:27 clarifies that the book of life belongs to the Lamb.
You must learn to read what is written, GO.
Rev 17:8 tells us that the writing of names in the book of life is from the foundation of the world.
Rev 21:27 clarifies that the book of life belongs to the Lamb.
You must learn to read what is written, GO.
Excellent!
Why can't more people see this?! It's so clear but people refuse to see. It seems the truth is often hidden in plain sight.
Great post!
Scriptures EXPLICITLY tells us of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world:
But he cannot read what is written, hence, genuineoriginal says: "The verse is not stating that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
His alter ego rejoices and says:
If NOT Christ, then who is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
KJV Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. |
But he cannot read what is written, hence, genuineoriginal says: "The verse is not stating that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
His alter ego rejoices and says:
For his alter ego, what GO says is the truth and what the Bible says is not the truth.
If NOT Christ, then who is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
dodge
New member
So based on your reasoning the book of life got slain ?
Jesus was the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world keeps the context of the verse.
Did Almighty God know that Jesus would be crucified BEFORE the heavens and earth was created ? Of course He did.
Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Simply put the book of life contains the names of those who are born again and in Christ Jesus who was slain from the foundation of the world.
I think I like that. :think: