Convince Me!

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Kimberlyann

New member
pastorkevin30 said:
Sure Kimberly, but if you pour yourself into answering someone's questions and they mock you and use diversionary tactics rather than openly discussing an issue it is exruciating and frustrating. I for one do not want to waste my time. So I can understand why Knight thought that way exactly. Did you ask him why he thought it would be a thread mocking Christians? Or do you just like to argue with me?? :)

I'm not trying to argue with you.

I don't see how a opportunity it witness to someone could be a waste of time. Perhaps Chair is sincerely looking for answers?
 

PKevman

New member
And that is all I was interested in finding out. If it were just a search for answers then that would be different, but he clearly stated in the beginning that his mind was made up and he just looked at it as an intellectual exercise.

God bless.
 

Kimberlyann

New member
Chair,

I feel I am out of my league but I will attempt to at least point you in the right direction. I hope this helps.

It is my understanding that Yochanan (John) convinced his followers that Y'shua was the Messiah by showing how He fulfilled every detail of the Spring Feasts of the LORD, just like they had been rehearsed for thousands of years. With this in mind please consider reading The Gospel of John and see if it helps put it in a new perspective.


"Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body [is] of the Christ;" Col 2:16-17


Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Matt. 5:17
 

chair

Well-known member
Aimiel said:
When you see a cross which covers the sky, from one end of the horizon to the other, and millions of Christians being snatched up, to meet with The Lord Jesus in the air, and are left behind, to face the worldwide control of this earth by Satan's incarnation, you'll consider The Son of Man in a different light. In that day you will see an entire nation (Israel) become Christian in one day, as The Lord prophecied. In that day though, the price of Christianity will be martyrdom. Those who will not receive the mark of the beast (which many believe to be a mind-controlling chip implanted in thier flesh) will be beheaded. Lots of luck with that.
Now I see why you have that star-wars photo representing you. You live in fantasy land.
Enjoy!
 

chair

Well-known member
Mustard Seed said:
The worshipers of Baal and Pharoah's court thought Elijah and Moses respectively were just plain silly, until, of course, they could no longer do such.

It's basically the same. I do not need another demonstration for myself. But let you call upon your God to give you an answer as to the sufficiency of your knowledge and present efforts to gain salvation and I'll do the same.

I don't think you are correct, yet I challenge you to apply the same test to your claims of God that I do.

Well, sometimes there are things that appear silly, but are true. But very often something that looks silly actually is. Rewritiing the story of the Old Testament into a Mormon story is an interesting form of fiction.

Bulls (and my time) are expensive. I won't waste them on every alternate religion or cult that shows up.
 

chair

Well-known member
Mustard Seed said:
BTW--

One of my best friends is Bahai. I've always wanted to see their building and gardens there on Carmel. Is it as good as the pictures chair?

The Bahai gardens are amazing. NO doubt about it.
 

chair

Well-known member
daddyugi said:
Hi Chair.

Thanks for dropping #4. This is going to require a little time and dialog so there will be
more than a few post, and since I have a family, lead a Bible study, and work, it may not
be as timely as you want. For this, I apologize. I do need to know where you stand on a
few items. Do you believe what the Bible (we have the same Bible with the exception of
the New Testament and I think the 4 books of the Maccabees, I've not read the Torah, so
I'm not certain about the 4 books of the Maccabees) has to say about 1) creation, 2)
Adam's sin, 3) the Bibles account up to Abraham, 4) what your belief about the Messiah
and what His purpose is for coming to the earth? I need to know this, so that I know
how to start our dialog. I am not going to set out to prove to you your need of a Saviour
because you have already made up your mind, but I will share my beliefs with you so that
you might come to understand what I believe and why.

As to your first point: I am a Christian - I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. You find a
large portion of His teaching in the Old Testament (the Torah) and His new teachings in
the New Testament. My view of Christianity is, in a nutshell, this: To live a holy life before
God and before my fellow man. To love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind and soul
AND to love my neighbor as myself. To hate sin and to do good. If this sounds familiar, it
should. You find this in the Old Testament. The difference between Judaism and
Christianity is the view of the Messiah. The Jews look forward to their coming Messiah,
and Christian look forward to the 2nd coming of their Messiah.

As to your second point: The evidence/reasoning of my belief you find in the Bible and
also find in history, archeaology, geology, medical science, astronomy, and personal
experience which you discount, so I won't use unless you decide differently. I look
forward to our dialog.

God bless you.

I do not take everything in the BIble literally. To your specific questions:

1. I do not take the Creation story literally. The Bible is not a cookbook on how to create a world. The main message is WHO created, not HOW.
2. In the Genesis story, Adam sinned. That is, he disobeyed God. I do not believe, however, that his sin tainted us all.
3. Account up to Abraham- again, I am not sure that everything there is to be taken literally.
4. The Messiah is the future King of teh Jews who will come and redeem the Jews. This is a physical thing, and is not connected to sin in any way. This is one of teh main points where we differ from Christianity.
 

chair

Well-known member
mighty_duck said:
pastorkevin30,

If you read through this thread, you will notice that chair has been very straightforward in his replies. You will not catch him mocking your answers (as long as they are reasonable arguments to make to a non-Christian), or use diviversionary tactics.
It looks like the intent of his opening remarks was not to imply such an attitude, but to set expectations. If, for example, you asked to understand a non-Christian position (such as Judaism, Buddhism, Atheism etc), you would not really expect to be convinced out of your espoused Christian beliefs. If an argument came along that was so strong it rocked your religious foundations, you may be convinced, but that is not to be expected.

I am curious to the actual arguments (I think this was chair's intent). If these can be summed up with things like "because the NT says so" or "so you can go to heaven" like Aimiel did in his last two posts, they are very uninteresting arguments to a non-believer.

Thanks, Duck. You have gotten the gist of my position.

As far as "diversionary tactics" and the like: I have no intention on doing so. It sometimes may look like that to somebody because I will insist on using the original Hebrew text, which he does not have direct access to. Also, I read the verses in context, without the Christian bias (admitting that I may have my own bias). Thus, things that seem obvious to someone who already believes, may not be obvious at all to me. This can lead to some major misunderstandings.
 

chair

Well-known member
pastorkevin30 said:
I might be interested in participating in this discussion, but I would honestly like to know ahead of time if Knight's assessment is correct. I kind of tend to agree with him on this. It seems to me that if all you will do is mock and avoid discussing things, then many would find it to be a waste of time.

Anyways, please let us know that you will be reasonable and discuss things openly, even if you don't agree with the points given.

I think it would also be helpful to those taking the "chair challenge" to know what TYPE of Judaism you embrace. Are you liberal, conservative, etc...I have met Jews on all sides of the spectrum. Also, are you actually Jewish? Raised Jewish from childhood, etc....

These would all be important aspects to discussing this issue with you.

God bless.

I am what is called an "Orthodox Jew", or more specifically a "Modern Orthodox Jew". I was born into an observant, Orthodox family, learned in Jewish schools, and remain observant to this day.

By "Orthodox" I mean that I follow the rules of Rabbinical Judiasm, which you may consider as derived from the teachings of the Pharisees (yes, I know that they got bad press in the New Testament).

I am also a Chemist. I live in Israel - I moved here 25 years ago.
 

daddyugi

New member
Hello chair,

Thanks for your response. So, we agree on point # 1. God created the heavens and
earth. I agree, the Bible is not a cookbook. I can barely make a cake, I wouldn't try to
make a world.
We also agree on # 2. Adam sinned. I realize that you don't believe that that sin nature
was not passed on and I'm not going to take a long time adressing that. I'm just going to
ask a question for you to answer to yourself. Did you ever have to teach a chilid to be
selfish, to lie, or to steal?
On question #3, most of what we find in Genesis from Adam to Abraham, with the
exception of Noah, is generations. So and so begat so and so and they died, etc. With
Noah and the Flood, there is evidence in fossils and fuel deposits that supports the Flood
but that is for another thread.
On question #4 we agree that the Messiah is the King and Redeemer of the Jews, where
we differ on is whether this is just a physical redemption or spiritual redemption. This is
where we will start. What does Scripture (Old Testament) say about the Messiah. I'm
going to start with what Scripture says about the spiritual redemption that the Messiah
brings. We go to a very familiar passage, Isaiah. I'm not familiar with how the Jewish
Bible is separated as far as chapters and verses, but I'm hoping that it's very similar to
how the NASB and the NIV are separated. If so, I'm going to ask you to read Isaiah,
chapter 52 and starting with verse 13 and reading through chapter 53 verse 12. Please
let me know when you're done and we'll continue our dialog with some more questions.

God bless you.
 

Mustard Seed

New member
chair said:
Well, sometimes there are things that appear silly, but are true. But very often something that looks silly actually is. Rewritiing the story of the Old Testament into a Mormon story is an interesting form of fiction.

No rewritting required, more correct translation perhapse. Look at the statements of one who's studied at depth the more gnostic realms of judaism and my faith, one Harold Bloom--aclaimed literary critic, and see his admiration of Smith. Now certainly he doesn't care much for his legacy--the present church that is thriving from such-- but he has great admiration for Joseph Smith--

Other Americans have been religion makers....but none of them has the imaginative vitality of Joseph Smith's revelation, a judgment one makes on the authority of a lifetime spent in apprehending the visions of great poets and original speculators.... So self-created was he that he transcends Emerson and Whitman in my imaginative response...

...The God of Joseph Smith is a daring revival of the God of some of the Kabbalists and Gnostics, prophetic sages who, like Smith himself, asserted that they had returned to the true religion....Mormonism is a purely American Gnosis...



Bulls (and my time) are expensive. I won't waste them on every alternate religion or cult that shows up.

Bulls not required. And with the words of potentially the formost combined authority on Jewish Gnosticism and a great literary/cultural critic comparing Joseph Smith, and the God he described, as on par with Kabbalists and Gnostics and the God some of them ascribed to.

Clearly Bloom still holds the views of Smith as fiction, if he didn't his lack of conversion would turn some heads. Even so, it stands to reason that not all groups thrown into the cult classification grab bag are of the same stature. Can you name any other 'alternate religion' or 'cult' that has managed to use and develope what some have called (such as the present Israeli Ambassador to the US if I recall correctly his words while visiting here) some of the best real estate in Jerusalem to build a center that doubles as a university branch and a religious structure?

http://ce.byu.edu/jc/

Also consider the fact that this 'cult' has a university that is one of the top three world wide authorities on ancient texts. You have one there in Israel and there's the other I believe in Italy.

Not trying to do this out of boasting. I simply wish to use rational to talk you out of the notion that our religion is just some run of the mill alternate religion or cult that's no more deserving of your attention than a new pastry thought up by the baker down the street. It's not a variation on a theme. And it's done far more than many realize and has far more linking it to you, your faith, your land, and your heritage than you know. If I may suggest an analysis of such done by a Jew who is not a member of my faith--

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=589

Again, not trying to sound pompus, I just feel that you should not brush this off when it merits closer examination.
 

chair

Well-known member
daddyugi said:
Hello chair,

Thanks for your response. So, we agree on point # 1. God created the heavens and
earth. I agree, the Bible is not a cookbook. I can barely make a cake, I wouldn't try to
make a world.
We also agree on # 2. Adam sinned. I realize that you don't believe that that sin nature
was not passed on and I'm not going to take a long time adressing that. I'm just going to
ask a question for you to answer to yourself. Did you ever have to teach a chilid to be
selfish, to lie, or to steal?
On question #3, most of what we find in Genesis from Adam to Abraham, with the
exception of Noah, is generations. So and so begat so and so and they died, etc. With
Noah and the Flood, there is evidence in fossils and fuel deposits that supports the Flood
but that is for another thread.
On question #4 we agree that the Messiah is the King and Redeemer of the Jews, where
we differ on is whether this is just a physical redemption or spiritual redemption. This is
where we will start. What does Scripture (Old Testament) say about the Messiah. I'm
going to start with what Scripture says about the spiritual redemption that the Messiah
brings. We go to a very familiar passage, Isaiah. I'm not familiar with how the Jewish
Bible is separated as far as chapters and verses, but I'm hoping that it's very similar to
how the NASB and the NIV are separated. If so, I'm going to ask you to read Isaiah,
chapter 52 and starting with verse 13 and reading through chapter 53 verse 12. Please
let me know when you're done and we'll continue our dialog with some more questions.

God bless you.

I have read the famous "suffering servant" bit many times in teh past, and I read it again this morining in response to your post. I have been throguh this part of the discussion before with others, so to save some time and avoid having you waste your own time writing posts, I would like to point out a few things:

1. The servant is not identified in any way as a Messianic figure. A Christian, who has already accpeted Christ would make that connection, but an outsider like myself would not think that Isaiah is talking about the Messiah.

2. Even assuming that the servant is the Messiah, you would have to prove that the New Testament is true, and that Jesus is in fact that servant. That remains a tall order.

Usually these discussion go in the direction of "well, if it isn't Jesus, then who is it?" You may choose to go in a different direction. In any case, my answer to "who is it?" is starightforward: "I don't know". There are a number of traditional Jewish interpretations of the text. It could easily be someone in teh past who we never heard of outside of Isaiah, or someone in the future who we haven't seen yet. And still point #1 would remain.

I will ask you to read Isaiah 11. Is that a Messianic chapter? Can you honestly say that it refers to Jesus?
 

chair

Well-known member
Mustard Seed said:
No rewritting required, more correct translation perhapse. Look at the statements of one who's studied at depth the more gnostic realms of judaism and my faith, one Harold Bloom--aclaimed literary critic, and see his admiration of Smith. Now certainly he doesn't care much for his legacy--the present church that is thriving from such-- but he has great admiration for Joseph Smith--

Other Americans have been religion makers....but none of them has the imaginative vitality of Joseph Smith's revelation, a judgment one makes on the authority of a lifetime spent in apprehending the visions of great poets and original speculators.... So self-created was he that he transcends Emerson and Whitman in my imaginative response...

...The God of Joseph Smith is a daring revival of the God of some of the Kabbalists and Gnostics, prophetic sages who, like Smith himself, asserted that they had returned to the true religion....Mormonism is a purely American Gnosis...





Bulls not required. And with the words of potentially the formost combined authority on Jewish Gnosticism and a great literary/cultural critic comparing Joseph Smith, and the God he described, as on par with Kabbalists and Gnostics and the God some of them ascribed to.

Clearly Bloom still holds the views of Smith as fiction, if he didn't his lack of conversion would turn some heads. Even so, it stands to reason that not all groups thrown into the cult classification grab bag are of the same stature. Can you name any other 'alternate religion' or 'cult' that has managed to use and develope what some have called (such as the present Israeli Ambassador to the US if I recall correctly his words while visiting here) some of the best real estate in Jerusalem to build a center that doubles as a university branch and a religious structure?

http://ce.byu.edu/jc/

Also consider the fact that this 'cult' has a university that is one of the top three world wide authorities on ancient texts. You have one there in Israel and there's the other I believe in Italy.

Not trying to do this out of boasting. I simply wish to use rational to talk you out of the notion that our religion is just some run of the mill alternate religion or cult that's no more deserving of your attention than a new pastry thought up by the baker down the street. It's not a variation on a theme. And it's done far more than many realize and has far more linking it to you, your faith, your land, and your heritage than you know. If I may suggest an analysis of such done by a Jew who is not a member of my faith--

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=589

Again, not trying to sound pompus, I just feel that you should not brush this off when it merits closer examination.

I don't mean to label Mormons as a "cult", in the extreme negative sense that the word has, any more than I label Christianity as a cult. But that doesn't mean that the premises of Mormonism or Christianity, for that matter, make any sense to me.

Thsi "experiential" method of choosing a religion is really not up my alley, as I have pointed out before. So let's leave it alone for now.
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
chair said:
I have never tried to conviince anybody here to become Jewish, and I ain't gonna start now. Many have tried to convince me of the truth of Christianity, thoiugh, which is why I opened this thread.
Just so you know, It isn't my job to convince you of the truth! I is simply my job to tell you the truth, and I have done that! I am aware that if you don't believe it there isn't one thing I can do about it!
 

Kimberlyann

New member
Chair,

This morning I was reminded of a commentary I read that said the Messiah came at the appointed time according to the prophecy in Gen. 49:10 . I have been searching all morning but I couldn't find it.

I found this instead:

(Gen. 49:10) The sceptre shall not depart from Judah till Shiloh come - Jacob here foretels,

(1.) That the sceptre should come into the tribe of Judah, which was fulfilled in David, on whose family the crown was entailed.

(2.) That Shiloh should be of this tribe; that seed in whom the earth should be blessed. That peaceable prosperous one, or, the Saviour, so others translate it, shall come of Judah.

(3.) That the sceptre should continue in that tribe, till the coming of the Messiah, in whom as the king of the church, and the great High - priest, it was fit that both the priesthood and the royalty should determine. Till the captivity, all along from David's time, the sceptre was in Judah, and from thence governors of that tribe, or of the Levites that adhered to it, which was equivalent; till Judea became a province of the Roman empire just at the time of our Saviour's birth, and was at that time taxed as one of the provinces, Luke 2:1, and at the time of his death the Jews expressly owned, We have no king but Caesar. Hence it is undeniably inferred against the Jews, that our Lord Jesus is be that should come, and we are to look for no other, for he came exactly at the time appointed.

(4.) That it should be a fruitful tribe, especially that it should abound with milk and wine, Gen 49:11,12, vines so common, and so strong, that they should tye their ***** to them, and so fruitful, that they should load their ***** from them; wine as plentiful as water, so that the men of that tribe should be very healthful and lively, their eyes brisk and sparkling, their teeth white. Much of that which is here said concerning Judah is to be applied to our Lord Jesus. He is the ruler of all his Father's children, and the conqueror of all his Father's enemies, and he it is that is the praise of all the saints. He is the lion of the tribe of Judah, as he is called with reference to this, Rev 5:5, who having spoiled principalities and powers, went up a conqueror, and couched so as none can stir him up when he sat down on the right hand of the Father. To him belongs the sceptre, he is the lawgiver, and to him shall the gathering of the people be, as the desire of all nations, Hag 2:7, who being lifted up from the earth should draw all men unto him, John 12:32, and in whom the children of God that are scattered abroad should meet as the centre of their unity, John 11:52. In him there is plenty of all that which is nourishing and refreshing to the soul, and which maintains and chears the divine life in it; in him we may have wine and milk, the riches of Judah's tribe, without money, and without price, Isa 55:1.

49:8-12 Judah's name signifies praise. God was praised for him, chap. 29:35, praised by him, and praised in him; therefore his brethren shall praise him. Judah should be a strong and courageous tribe. Judah is compared, not to a lion raging and ranging, but to a lion enjoying the satisfaction of his power and success, without creating vexation to others; this is to be truly great. Judah should be the royal tribe, the tribe from which Messiah the Prince should come. Shiloh, that promised Seed in whom the earth should be blessed, that peaceable and prosperous One, or Saviour, he shall come of Judah. Thus dying Jacob at a great distance saw Christ's day, and it was his comfort and support on his death-bed. Till Christ's coming, Judah possessed authority, but after his crucifixion this was shortened, and according to what Christ foretold, Jerusalem was destroyed, and all the poor harassed remnant of Jews were confounded together. Much which is here said concerning Judah, is to be applied to our Lord Jesus. In him there is plenty of all which is nourishing and refreshing to the soul, and which maintains and cheers the Divine life in it. He is the true Vine; wine is the appointed symbol of his blood, which is drink indeed, as shed for sinners, and applied in faith; and all the blessings of his gospel are wine and milk, without money and without price, to which every thirsty soul is welcome. Isa 55:1.

http://bible.cc/genesis/49-10.htm
 

chair

Well-known member
Kimberlyann said:
Chair,

This morning I was reminded of a commentary I read that said the Messiah came at the appointed time according to the prophecy in Gen. 49:10 . I have been searching all morning but I couldn't find it.

I found this instead:
http://bible.cc/genesis/49-10.htm

Thanks.

This is the kind of post that I am not surfe what to do with. It is more an expression of your faith than anything that would attract me to it.

This is essentially a Christian interpretation of the verses, but not one that would convince an outsider.
 

Kimberlyann

New member
chair said:
Thanks.

This is the kind of post that I am not surfe what to do with. It is more an expression of your faith than anything that would attract me to it.

This is essentially a Christian interpretation of the verses, but not one that would convince an outsider.

Chair,

Your welcome. :) I understand your point.

God Bless.
 

Mustard Seed

New member
chair said:
Thsi "experiential" method of choosing a religion is really not up my alley, as I have pointed out before. So let's leave it alone for now.

I'll back out of here then if proof goes beyond attempts at experimentation.
 

chair

Well-known member
Mustard Seed said:
I'll back out of here then if proof goes beyond attempts at experimentation.

I would not call it experimentation. maybe hallucination.

Think for a minute. If I ask God, then one of three things may happen:

1. No answer
2. God says Christianity is the way to go
3. God says that another religion is the way to go

Many people have asked, and they have come up with all three answers. So how is one to know form this "experiment" what is truth?
 
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