Convince Me!

[Echo]

Chair, I take it that you do believe in the God of the OT correct?.....and that you try to live by His word?....

If so, when Jesus was asked in the NT what was the way to be saved, He said it was by obeying the laws of Moses...and then He cited part of the 10 commandments. He was speaking to a Jew when He said this....a Jew who specifically asked Him what he must do to be saved. I know you don't believe the NT, but just for the sake of argument, let's say it's true....

So, based on what Jesus said to that Jew, do you see yourself as "saved"?

 

[PKevman]

I am still with Knight AND daddyugi, who both correctly pointed out that the opening statement was an open-ended invitation to failure. The very premise was faulty and would thus render the whole exercise a waste of time.

 

[chair]

Chair, I take it that you do believe in the God of the OT correct?.....and that you try to live by His word?....

If so, when Jesus was asked in the NT what was the way to be saved, He said it was by obeying the laws of Moses...and then He cited part of the 10 commandments. He was speaking to a Jew when He said this....a Jew who specifically asked Him what he must do to be saved. I know you don't believe the NT, but just for the sake of argument, let's say it's true....

So, based on what Jesus said to that Jew, do you see yourself as "saved"?

the term "saved", as you use it, does not exist in my lexicon. We are not "saved" or "unsaved". THose ideas come from a Christian view of the world that I don't have.

 

[chair]

I am still with Knight AND daddyugi, who both correctly pointed out that the opening statement was an open-ended invitation to failure. The very premise was faulty and would thus render the whole exercise a waste of time.

Pastor,

I already backed down on my request for short posts. That was a technical requirement that some here found hard to deal with.

A. I am willing to discuss the premises. What in particular is faulty to your mind, and why?
B. I am curious as to what you would consider a fair set of premises for this discussion. Go ahead, start from scratch.

Chair

 

[Echo]

the term "saved", as you use it, does not exist in my lexicon. We are not "saved" or "unsaved". THose ideas come from a Christian view of the world that I don't have.

I know the concept of "salvation", as in being saved from sin to go to heaven when you die, doesn't exist in your religion, but I also know that the word "saved" is in the OT...and many times God "saved" the people of Israel....so the term is there in your beliefs, even if it has a different meaning.

So, why DID a Jew obey the Mosaic Laws? If it wasn't to be "saved", then why? To be in a right standing with God correct?

From a Christian perspective, that is also what it means to be "saved"....it means to be in a right standing with God. Judaism and Christianity just get there by different means.

So what do you make of what Jesus said to the Jewish man who asked Him how to be saved?

 

[chair]

I know the concept of "salvation", as in being saved from sin to go to heaven when you die, doesn't exist in your religion, but I also know that the word "saved" is in the OT...and many times God "saved" the people of Israel....so the term is there in your beliefs, even if it has a different meaning.

So, why DID a Jew obey the Mosaic Laws? If it wasn't to be "saved", then why? To be in a right standing with God correct?

From a Christian perspective, that is also what it means to be "saved"....it means to be in a right standing with God. Judaism and Christianity just get there by different means.

So what do you make of what Jesus said to the Jewish man who asked Him how to be saved?

I am not sure what to make of this. Being saved in the Old Testament was generally something that happened to the nation, not individuals.

My impression is that Jesus was talking pretty much like any Rabbi of his time would. I am trying to type "yes, I am saved", but my fingers just won't do it, because the term has such heavily Christian connotations that I just can't.

What is your point thoiugh? What are you driving at?

 

[Aimiel]

Without Christ, one cannot be saved. Jesus said, "I am The Way, The Truth and The Life." He is The One and Only Way to The Father. Anyone who tries to approach God any other way, Jesus said, is a theif and a robber. If you knew The Father, you'd recognize The Son.

 

[chair]

Without Christ, one cannot be saved. Jesus said, "I am The Way, The Truth and The Life." He is The One and Only Way to The Father. Anyone who tries to approach God any other way, Jesus said, is a theif and a robber. If you knew The Father, you'd recognize The Son.

Do have any idea at all how little your statement means to me? It is very nice that you have this faith, but so what?

 

[Mustard Seed]

I have read a small part of the Book of Mormon, and some of the New Testament. I may read more. But I won't ask God to tell me that if it is true. I am not seriously considering this as true, and I wouldn't bother god with every bit of religious literature that is thrown at me.
Besides which, my Bible warns me about foriegn gods, ones that my fathers did not know, and all brands of Christianity (inlcuding Mormonism) fall into that category.

Unless Mormonism is what it claims to be. In which case the other manifestations of Christianity and Judaism already are the very foreign gods and elements that your fathers did not know and 'Mormonism' is the restored purity of the very faith that Moses and Abraham had. Elijah is held up in Judaism. Why not take a test that in essense is the same he gave for discernment between the living God and a false one(s)? Why not use asking of God and receiving a response to judge which God is God? Will you pray to God and ask him if you are in the proper faith and have a proper view and a proper worship of him? Will you ask him if your reading and understandings of his words are correct? This doesn't need be a limited to simply asking God for negation of false faiths but can be used as a confirmation for perceived potential correct ones.

Will you pray and ask God if your view of him is correct and sufficient for salvation?

 

[chair]

Unless Mormonism is what it claims to be. In which case the other manifestations of Christianity and Judaism already are the very foreign gods and elements that your fathers did not know and 'Mormonism' is the restored purity of the very faith that Moses and Abraham had. Elijah is held up in Judaism. Why not take a test that in essense is the same he gave for discernment between the living God and a false one(s)? Why not use asking of God and receiving a response to judge which God is God? Will you pray to God and ask him if you are in the proper faith and have a proper view and a proper worship of him? Will you ask him if your reading and understandings of his words are correct? This doesn't need be a limited to simply asking God for negation of false faiths but can be used as a confirmation for perceived potential correct ones.

Will you pray and ask God if your view of him is correct and sufficient for salvation?

If Mormmons claim, as you seem to be doing, that Moses and the Israelites were essentially Mormons, then Mormonism is just plain silly. Is this what you are saying?

Now, I live on the Carmel Mountain, convenientally enough. Should I take a couple of bulls, slaughter them, label one "Mormon" and the other "Judaism", and see if a fire reaches down from heaven for one of them? That is what Elijah did - Except fo ron emajor point. Elijah never even started thinking that the Baal worshippers were right. The test wasn't for himself- it was a demonstration to other Israelites.

 

[Echo]

I am not sure what to make of this. Being saved in the Old Testament was generally something that happened to the nation, not individuals.

Yes, but there was also an individualized personal standing with God wasn't there? For instance, Moses and those who stood with him survived the wrath of God after the golden calf episode, and those who opposed Moses were destroyed. So that was more an individual "salvation" based on each person's CHOICE of whether or not to stand with Moses or oppose him....God's wrath being lifted from those who chose Moses and God's wrath falling on those who opposed. Correct?

My impression is that Jesus was talking pretty much like any Rabbi of his time would.

Yes, that's probably true. He was a rabbi...they called Him "Rabboni" which means teacher. Don't you think this is rather odd that He would tell the Jewish man to obey the law of Moses (the 10 Com) rather than have faith in Him to be saved? Why do you think that is?

I am trying to type "yes, I am saved", but my fingers just won't do it, because the term has such heavily Christian connotations that I just can't.

Yes, it does have a strong Christian meaning....but it also had a meaning in Judaism and had a meaning when the Jewish man asked Jesus "what must I do to be saved?". Based on the Jewish meaning....what exactly do you think that man was asking Jesus?

What is your point thoiugh? What are you driving at?

Not really driving at anything. Just trying to look at this from a different perspective. Maybe you and I can both learn something eh? :up:

 

[Aimiel]

Do have any idea at all how little your statement means to me? It is very nice that you have this faith, but so what?

When you see a cross which covers the sky, from one end of the horizon to the other, and millions of Christians being snatched up, to meet with The Lord Jesus in the air, and are left behind, to face the worldwide control of this earth by Satan's incarnation, you'll consider The Son of Man in a different light. In that day you will see an entire nation (Israel) become Christian in one day, as The Lord prophecied. In that day though, the price of Christianity will be martyrdom. Those who will not receive the mark of the beast (which many believe to be a mind-controlling chip implanted in thier flesh) will be beheaded. Lots of luck with that.

 

[Mustard Seed]

If Mormmons claim, as you seem to be doing, that Moses and the Israelites were essentially Mormons, then Mormonism is just plain silly. Is this what you are saying?

The worshipers of Baal and Pharoah's court thought Elijah and Moses respectively were just plain silly, until, of course, they could no longer do such.

Now, I live on the Carmel Mountain, convenientally enough. Should I take a couple of bulls, slaughter them, label one "Mormon" and the other "Judaism", and see if a fire reaches down from heaven for one of them? That is what Elijah did - Except fo ron emajor point. Elijah never even started thinking that the Baal worshippers were right. The test wasn't for himself- it was a demonstration to other Israelites.

It's basically the same. I do not need another demonstration for myself. But let you call upon your God to give you an answer as to the sufficiency of your knowledge and present efforts to gain salvation and I'll do the same.

I don't think you are correct, yet I challenge you to apply the same test to your claims of God that I do.

 

[Mustard Seed]

BTW--

One of my best friends is Bahai. I've always wanted to see their building and gardens there on Carmel. Is it as good as the pictures chair?

 

[daddyugi]

Hi Chair.

Thanks for dropping #4. This is going to require a little time and dialog so there will be
more than a few post, and since I have a family, lead a Bible study, and work, it may not
be as timely as you want. For this, I apologize. I do need to know where you stand on a
few items. Do you believe what the Bible (we have the same Bible with the exception of
the New Testament and I think the 4 books of the Maccabees, I've not read the Torah, so
I'm not certain about the 4 books of the Maccabees) has to say about 1) creation, 2)
Adam's sin, 3) the Bibles account up to Abraham, 4) what your belief about the Messiah
and what His purpose is for coming to the earth? I need to know this, so that I know
how to start our dialog. I am not going to set out to prove to you your need of a Saviour
because you have already made up your mind, but I will share my beliefs with you so that
you might come to understand what I believe and why.

As to your first point: I am a Christian - I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. You find a
large portion of His teaching in the Old Testament (the Torah) and His new teachings in
the New Testament. My view of Christianity is, in a nutshell, this: To live a holy life before
God and before my fellow man. To love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind and soul
AND to love my neighbor as myself. To hate sin and to do good. If this sounds familiar, it
should. You find this in the Old Testament. The difference between Judaism and
Christianity is the view of the Messiah. The Jews look forward to their coming Messiah,
and Christian look forward to the 2nd coming of their Messiah.

As to your second point: The evidence/reasoning of my belief you find in the Bible and
also find in history, archeaology, geology, medical science, astronomy, and personal
experience which you discount, so I won't use unless you decide differently. I look
forward to our dialog.

God bless you.

 

[PKevman]

Hi Chair.

Thanks for dropping #4. This is going to require a little time and dialog so there will be
more than a few post, and since I have a family, lead a Bible study, and work, it may not
be as timely as you want. For this, I apologize. I do need to know where you stand on a
few items. Do you believe what the Bible (we have the same Bible with the exception of
the New Testament and I think the 4 books of the Maccabees, I've not read the Torah, so
I'm not certain about the 4 books of the Maccabees) has to say about 1) creation, 2)
Adam's sin, 3) the Bibles account up to Abraham, 4) what your belief about the Messiah
and what His purpose is for coming to the earth? I need to know this, so that I know
how to start our dialog. I am not going to set out to prove to you your need of a Saviour
because you have already made up your mind, but I will share my beliefs with you so that
you might come to understand what I believe and why.

As to your first point: I am a Christian - I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. You find a
large portion of His teaching in the Old Testament (the Torah) and His new teachings in
the New Testament. My view of Christianity is, in a nutshell, this: To live a holy life before
God and before my fellow man. To love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind and soul
AND to love my neighbor as myself. To hate sin and to do good. If this sounds familiar, it
should. You find this in the Old Testament. The difference between Judaism and
Christianity is the view of the Messiah. The Jews look forward to their coming Messiah,
and Christian look forward to the 2nd coming of their Messiah.

As to your second point: The evidence/reasoning of my belief you find in the Bible and
also find in history, archeaology, geology, medical science, astronomy, and personal
experience which you discount, so I won't use unless you decide differently. I look
forward to our dialog.

God bless you.

:up:

 

[PKevman]

TRANSLATION: When you share your pearls with me, I am going to mock you.

Any post that ends with a "I don't expect to be changed in my thinking." or a "no matter what evidence you present I will not change my mind." or "I don't care what you say it wont make any difference." should be a warning that the poster's only intention is to waste your time.

I might be interested in participating in this discussion, but I would honestly like to know ahead of time if Knight's assessment is correct. I kind of tend to agree with him on this. It seems to me that if all you will do is mock and avoid discussing things, then many would find it to be a waste of time.

Anyways, please let us know that you will be reasonable and discuss things openly, even if you don't agree with the points given.

I think it would also be helpful to those taking the "chair challenge" to know what TYPE of Judaism you embrace. Are you liberal, conservative, etc...I have met Jews on all sides of the spectrum. Also, are you actually Jewish? Raised Jewish from childhood, etc....

These would all be important aspects to discussing this issue with you.

God bless.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Pastor Kevin,

I am sure the intent of this thread isn't to mock Christians.

Aren't we supposed to " ... sanctify the Lord God* in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;" ?(1 Peter 3:15 NKJ)

 

[PKevman]

Sure Kimberly, but if you pour yourself into answering someone's questions and they mock you and use diversionary tactics rather than openly discussing an issue it is exruciating and frustrating. I for one do not want to waste my time. So I can understand why Knight thought that way exactly. Did you ask him why he thought it would be a thread mocking Christians? Or do you just like to argue with me??

 

[mighty_duck]

Sure Kimberly, but if you pour yourself into answering someone's questions and they mock you and use diversionary tactics rather than openly discussing an issue it is exruciating and frustrating. I for one do not want to waste my time. So I can understand why Knight thought that way exactly. Did you ask him why he thought it would be a thread mocking Christians? Or do you just like to argue with me??

pastorkevin30,

If you read through this thread, you will notice that chair has been very straightforward in his replies. You will not catch him mocking your answers (as long as they are reasonable arguments to make to a non-Christian), or use diviversionary tactics.
It looks like the intent of his opening remarks was not to imply such an attitude, but to set expectations. If, for example, you asked to understand a non-Christian position (such as Judaism, Buddhism, Atheism etc), you would not really expect to be convinced out of your espoused Christian beliefs. If an argument came along that was so strong it rocked your religious foundations, you may be convinced, but that is not to be expected.

I am curious to the actual arguments (I think this was chair's intent). If these can be summed up with things like "because the NT says so" or "so you can go to heaven" like Aimiel did in his last two posts, they are very uninteresting arguments to a non-believer.