Convince Me!

[chair]

Have you ever tried to come to Christ humbly, as His servant, in love? Until you do that, I don't think anyone is going to be able to convince you.

But why should I? I woudl have to have faith first before I do that.

 

[bigbang123]

Take the Chair challenge! Convince me that Christianity is true. Many of you have been trying to do this in various threads, so here is a chance to go at it in a straightforward way, instead of hijacking other threads.

There are some rules:

1. Please define, BRIEFLY, what you mean by Christianity before you start. There are differing views about this, so I would like to know what exactly you are trying to convince me of.
2. Give some evidence or reasoning for your statements.
3. Avoid circular reasoning. If you want to prove something from the Bible, you will have to convince me that the Bible is true first.
4. Please be brief. I get lost in long-winded lengthy posts.
5. Personal experience ( I feel God) won't work with me, so don't bother.
6. Don't assume that I agree with you on anything before I have actually said so. Some ideas that you think are held by everybody but be completely foreign to me.

Honestly - I view this as an intellectual exercise. I don't expect to be changed in my thinking. But you never know...

some friendly advice from a former christian - some here may try to convince you that you should become a christians because christianity (in their opinion) makes more sense any other religious option currently on the market.

it goes without saying that that in and of itself doesn't mean that christianity is true - christianity may just be the most credible selection in an un-credible lot.

this, like all analogies, is flawed but bear with me a moment.
imagine i've placed in front of you 10 cups of kool-aid, each containing different amounts of arsenic.

the cup of kool-aid with the least amount of arsenic, i suppose, would be the least objectionable but in reality none of them would be acceptable.

likewise, this book* is john's explanation as to why christianity, although in many respects the best of the available selections, is still not acceptable as a world view which he can still embrace.

as your apologetics assignment, should you choose to accept it, chapter by chapter how would you respond to john (theme music
from MISSION IMPOSSIBLE quietly playing in the background)?

some of the arsenic like elements in christianity

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.

*Why I Rejected Christianity: A Former Apologist Explains
by John W. Loftus

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Rejected-...9983034?ie=UTF8

http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/view-...145338-31415aaa

 

[Reconciled]

Chair,

We can't convince you that Christianity is true. This is a Spiritual experience between the seeker and their God.

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.


If you truly want to know if Christianity is true ask Him with a sincere heart, He'll let you know.

 

[allsmiles]

But why should I? I woudl have to have faith first before I do that.

Let's not forget the obvious Chair, that being the fact that Jesus, whether he existed or not, did not fit the bill of the Jewish messiah. He just wasn't it :nono:

 

[Mustard Seed]

5. Personal experience ( I feel God) won't work with me, so don't bother.

If what I proposed had YOU experiencing something personally would you discount that? Or is the "personal experience" thing universal in your rejection criteria?

 

[Cracked]

But why should I? I woudl have to have faith first before I do that.

Because God loves you, and His hand is extended to you - all you need do is reach for it.

Luke 11:
9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

 

[eisenreich]

Yes.

You will never hear me say... "I don't expect to be changed in my thinking." or "no matter what evidence you present I will not change my mind." or "I don't care what you say it wont make any difference."

Therefore, my attitude is indeed "different".

As AS has already deftly pointed out, you were less than welcoming to an honest discussion on the historicity of Jesus. Considering Jesus' existence as the son of God is the prerequisite for all of your theological arguments and the basis of your life, there is "no evidence [we could] present that would change your mind".

Tell me I'm wrong. Either I'm wrong or you're a hypocrite for your statement directed towards chair, which is it? If my name is red by morning, we'll know who was right..

 

[allsmiles]

As AS has already deftly pointed out, you were less than welcoming to an honest discussion on the historicity of Jesus. Considering Jesus' existence as the son of God is the prerequisite for all of your theological arguments and the basis of your life, there is "no evidence [we could] present that would change your mind".

Tell me I'm wrong. Either I'm wrong or you're a hypocrite for your statement directed towards chair, which is it? If my name is red by morning, we'll know who was right..

:BRAVO:

If Knight even responds to this he'll have a host of half-baked excuses for not engaging anyone on the subject of Jesus' alleged historicity. In the end I didn't even ask him to engage me, I asked him to present his evidence and nothing more. He wouldn't/couldn't even do that.

There's no reason to despair however. In KimberlyAnn's thread, something like A Question for nonbelievers, there were around three or four of us who flat out said that we don't believe Jesus existed in the first place The word is getting around, they're going to have to confront it sooner or later and when they do it's going to be a beautiful catastrophe

 

[Wessex Man]

If Knight even responds to this he'll have a host of half-baked excuses for not engaging anyone on the subject of Jesus' alleged historicity. In the end I didn't even ask him to engage me, I asked him to present his evidence and nothing more. He wouldn't/couldn't even do that.

There's no reason to despair however. In KimberlyAnn's thread, something like A Question for nonbelievers, there were around three or four of us who flat out said that we don't believe Jesus existed in the first place The word is getting around, they're going to have to confront it sooner or later and when they do it's going to be a beautiful catastrophe

The doublethink some christians engage in is quite amazing,I don't know how they do it.

 

[allsmiles]

What's important at this point is that we don't fall into the trap of hypocrisy, disunity, dishonesty and cowardice that they do. We need to bide our time, collect our thoughts, prepare our arguments, come together as a group and strike when the time is right.

By "we" I mean the heathens of TOL, whether that means atheist, agnostic, buddhist (I see you down there Balder), pagan, satanist, etc.

Skepticism has developed far beyond Christian apologetics in general sophistication and our group here should reflect that.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Chair,

I can tell you what I believe about Y'shua, but I can't convince you, that's the Father's job. He's the one to do the calling, dragging and choosing.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him…" (John 6:44

"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

(You already know I believe this will eventually include all mankind)

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).


Here are a handful of Messianic Prophecies that I believe Y'shua fulfilled.



The scepter shall not pass from the tribe of Judah until the Messiah comes. In other words, He will come before Israel loses its right to judge her own people. The patriarch Jacob prophecied this:

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. (Genesis 49:10)

As Dr. Henry M. Morris' The Defender's Bible explains:

This important prophecy has been strikingly fulfilled. Although Judah was neither Jacob's firstborn son nor the son who would produce the priestly tribe, he was the son through whom God would fulfill His promises to Israel and to the world. The leadership, according to Jacob, was to go to Judah, but this did not happen for over 600 years. Moses came from Levi, Joshua from Ephraim, Gideon from Manasseh, Samson from Dan, Samuel from Ephraim and Saul from Benjamin. But when David finally became king, Judah held the scepter and did not relinquish it until after Shiloh came. "Shiloh" is a name for the Messiah, probably related to the Hebrew word for "peace" (shalom) and meaning in effect, "the one who brings peace."

According to the Jewish historian Josephus, the Sanhedrin of Israel lost the right to truly judge its own people when it lost the right to pass death penalties in 11 A.D. (Josephus, Antiquities, Book 17, Chapter 13). Jesus Christ was certainly born before 11 A.D.

He will come while the Temple of Jerusalem is standing ( Malachi 3:1; Psalm 118:26; Daniel 9:26; Zechariah 11:13; Haggai 2:7-9). Fulfilled: Matthew 21:12, etc. (Note: The Temple did not exist at certain periods in Jewish history, and it was finally destroyed in 70 A.D.)

He will perform many miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6). Fulfillment: See list of "Miracles Recorded in the Gospels".

He will open the eyes of the blind (Isa. 29:18). Fulfillment: Matt 9:27-31; 12:22; 20:29; Mark 8:22-26; 10:46; Luke 11:14; 18:35; John 9:1-7.

He will speak in parables (Psalm 78:2). Fulfillment: Matthew 13:34, etc.

The Gentiles will believe in Him, while His own people (the Jews) will reject him ( Isaiah 8:14; 28:16; 49:6; 50:6; 60:3; Psalms 22:7-8; 118:22). Fulfillment: 1 Peter 2:7, etc.

I wanted to keep this brief to honor your request. If your interested in the rest of the article please click on the link below.

God bless.

http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/messianicprophecies.html

 

[allsmiles]

Kimberlyann, hypothetically speaking, if Jesus did not exist, how difficult would it have been for an author, constructing a fictitious story of the messiah, to look back at messianic prophecies and simply write in their fulfillment?

Also, miracles in the gospels don't really prove much. It has been established that Matthew and Luke relied heavily and primarily on Mark as the source of their gospels and eyewitnesses would not have had to do that, but Mark wasn't an eyewitness either...:think:

It would have been no great literary feat for the prophecies to be fictitiously fulfilled by a fictitious character and for miracles to have been performed by this characer. Have you seen Superman Returns, or even the originals? Superman performs some miraculous stuff in those movies, but it certainly doesn't prove that he's real.

 

[TheDude]

I think its great how almost no one has addressed the OP. Its great how you people intentionally go off topic and derail the thread.

Do you guys PM eachother and make up hit lists, or is it some unspoken connection that all of you have? Is that the unity the Holy Spirit said would happen? The collective ability to ignore the questions people ask and side step around every thing?

Cause if so, that just makes you underhanded. And thats not very Christian.

TheDude is back abiding.

 

[OlDove]

chair
i was raised Christian. within its teachings i found/learned how to forgive, love those i dont like, the golden rule.

i also found/learned as a group, we aint that much different then any other group. look inside your self. find a peacefull you. faith or no faith. GOD LOVES YOU :thumb:

 

[Middlemoor]

Convince me that Christianity is true.

"Luke 4:12, Jesus answering, said to him, "It has been said,'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"

Also, faith comes by conviction, not convicing.

 

[Cracked]

I think its great how almost no one has addressed the OP. Its great how you people intentionally go off topic and derail the thread.

'You people' must mean Christians trying to help, trying to, "Convince me that Christianity is true" . Looks like the 'Jesus doesn't exist' crowd are the ones derailing the thread.

Do you guys PM eachother and make up hit lists, or is it some unspoken connection that all of you have? Is that the unity the Holy Spirit said would happen? The collective ability to ignore the questions people ask and side step around every thing?

Much like your collective ability to neg rep those same Christians trying to contribute - those trying to explain from a Christian perspective what is 'convincing'.

Cause if so, that just makes you underhanded. And thats not very Christian.

The only 'underhanded' thing I see here is the anti-Christian sentiment in a thread where it does not belong, and wasn't asked for in the first place.

 

[eisenreich]

Knight's back on, bump for him-

Yes.

You will never hear me say... "I don't expect to be changed in my thinking." or "no matter what evidence you present I will not change my mind." or "I don't care what you say it wont make any difference."

Therefore, my attitude is indeed "different".

As AS has already deftly pointed out, you were less than welcoming to an honest discussion on the historicity of Jesus. Considering Jesus' existence as the son of God is the prerequisite for all of your theological arguments and the basis of your life, there is "no evidence [we could] present that would change your mind".

Tell me I'm wrong. Either I'm wrong or you're a hypocrite for your statement directed towards chair, which is it? If my name is red by morning, we'll know who was right..

 

[Jefferson]

chair:

What is your interpretation of Daniel 9:25?

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

Christians view it as follows: Gabriel splits the first sixty-nine weeks into seven weeks (forty-nine years) and sixty-two weeks (434 years). During the forty-nine years from 457 to 408 BC, Jerusalem was being rebuilt. After this time Jerusalem was a fully functioning trade center and fortress. This fulfills the prophecy exactly.

Adding the 434 years to 408 BC brings us to AD 27 (adding one year for passing over the non-existent year 0). During this year, John baptized Jesus and His ministry began.

How do Jews view this verse?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight's back on, bump for him-



As AS has already deftly pointed out, you were less than welcoming to an honest discussion on the historicity of Jesus. Considering Jesus' existence as the son of God is the prerequisite for all of your theological arguments and the basis of your life, there is "no evidence [we could] present that would change your mind".

Tell me I'm wrong. Either I'm wrong or you're a hypocrite for your statement directed towards chair, which is it? If my name is red by morning, we'll know who was right..

Is your brain fried?

I said YOU WILL NOT HEAR ME SAY.... (those things) That's the opposite of hypocrisy.

You see, chair and allsmiles did the same thing. They both wanted people to massage their thread yet their stance was no matter what was said it was predetermined that it would be insufficient therefore they are a waste of time (at least on that specific issue).

Do you get it yet?

 

[eisenreich]

Is your brain fried?

I said YOU WILL NOT HEAR ME SAY.... (those things) That's the opposite of hypocrisy.

You see, chair and allsmiles did the same thing. They both wanted people to massage their thread yet their stance was no matter what was said it was predetermined that it would be insufficient therefore they are a waste of time (at least on that specific issue).

Do you get it yet?

So it's possible that AS and I could provide evidence that Jesus was a myth that could possibly convince you that we are correct?