Jesus became sin to die for the sins of humankind.
So you think Paul did better?
Did Paul sin more than all of mankind?
I suspect Paul murdered less than a million people.
Paul is not in the same league as Hitler and Stalin.
Consequences of Unbelief or Incorrect Doctrine
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Jesus became sin to die for the sins of humankind.
So you think Paul did better?
Did Paul sin more than all of mankind?
I suspect Paul murdered less than a million people.
Paul is not in the same league as Hitler and Stalin.
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (Romans 8:9)
Why do you believe Paul did not have God's Spirit?
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)
As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners. We only have the first fruits or the down payment of the Holy Spirit. We are waiting to be delivered from the flesh. See Romans 8:22-27.
Sin is a debt. Those in debt are debtors.
When our debt is paid we are no longer a debtor.
Our big Brother picked up the tab and our sins are forgiven.
That means he has cleansed us from our unrighteous.
If a debt is forgiven it is no longer owed.
Jesus was in an Adamic body and he didn't sin.
We are begotten by the Father as Spirit.
The flesh counts for nothing, don't focus on it.
Spiritually, we are perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.
Physically, we are the "chief of sinners". 1 Timothy 1:15.
If you are not able to distinguish between the two the Bible will not make sense.
glorydaz
Well-known member
But, Robert, how can we be the "chief of sinners" if Paul says he is? What does the word "chief" mean to you?
1 Timothy 1:15
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Tnkrbl123!
New member
I completely agree and would add that when you said the old Paul died and became a new creation that this is exactly the message that God was sending because before Paul was named Paul by God his name was Saul and Saul was the man who was zealous about pleasing God - and tried to please God by killing Christians (pretty messed up yes) but did not recognize that Jesus was God and when Jesus made Saul a new creation Jesus gave him the new name of Paul - a new name for a new man.
Robert, you are not making sense.
Jesus bears our sins and we are clean.
That's as far as we can go.
I completely agree and would add that when you said the old Paul died and became a new creation that this is exactly the message that God was sending because before Paul was named Paul by God his name was Saul and Saul was the man who was zealous about pleasing God - and tried to please God by killing Christians (pretty messed up yes) but did not recognize that Jesus was God and when Jesus made Saul a new creation Jesus gave him the new name of Paul - a new name for a new man.
That same Paul said, "In my flesh dwells no good thing" Romans 7:18.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I can't stop pointing out that you are misinterpreting that verse. It's sad to watch, because the message Paul is giving is so important. That he is the FIRST TO be saved under the Gospel of Grace the Risen Lord revealed to him. He is the FIRST for a pattern for those who would follow.
First (chief) and a pattern is NOT THE SAME as the "worst" of sinners as you are trying to portray him. You're bearing false witness against Paul. How can you not see the import of this text?
1 Timothy 1:14-16
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Oh, the same one who said he cannot do the good he wanted to do?
Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Or the one who says, "I can do all things through Christ..." Philippians 4:13
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Robert,
The judge can cause a prisoner to be righteous in the courtroom, "in the eyes of the court." People try to push the existential over the declarative, but that is prejudicial.
To make someone righteous has an end in view, or a final state. But the declaration often precedes that actual state in the body of the person. And that requires a different sort of basis for such a declaration than the actual being of the person.
The WORD of God creates its own reality. But from our experiential standpoint, it isn't always felt instantly.
Yes, we are made righteous... eventually, in our person. Through union, now, with Christ, we are "definitively sanctified." But that's a product of our union. We are righteous now because we are IN Christ, and HE is righteous right now. Ours is an alien righteousness, that of Another.
AMR
"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." (1 John 3:7)
Quit trying to deceive people. It's not working.
There are two kinds of righteousness.
The righteousness of man and the righteousness of God.
No one has the righteousness of God, simply because, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.
We are NOT righteous now.
Paul said, Romans 8:19-27.
I don't know about you, but I am still groaning and waiting to be delivered from the flesh.
There are none righteous, no, not one without God's Spirit.
"Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Romans 8:9)
True, but not yet. That is the spiritual aspect of the Christian life. The physical aspect is that, Romans 3:10.