Consequences of Unbelief or Incorrect Doctrine

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Robert Pate

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Banned
Many think that they can believe what they want to believe about God and his Son Jesus Christ and that there are no consequences to what they believe.

There are consequences to not having the correct beliefs. Example, Jesus said, "I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he you will die in your sins" John 8:24.

Jesus is telling us that if you do not believe that he is Lord or God you are lost. Plain and simple. Many Calvinist on this Forum do not believe that Jesus is the savior and redeemer of the whole world, in spite of many scriptures that say that he is, such as, 1 John 2:2 or 1 John 4:14. Question is can you believe that Jesus is not the savior of the whole world and still be saved? The answer is no and here is why.

The Gospel is one complete and total message. It does not include fragments of beliefs or doctrines. Many belief that Jesus is the Son of God, but do not believe that he is their savior. That is a fragment of belief and will not save. To believe the Gospel is to believe all of the Gospel and not just some of it. Catholics believe that Jesus is the savior, but do not believe that he saves completely. They believe that it is necessary for them to participate in their salvation. They do not believe the Gospel. Sinners cannot save themselves no matter what they do.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15 and in doing so has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. This is basic Christian doctrine. To not believe this is to put yourself outside of the faith and under the judgment of God. One of the perquisites for salvation is that you must believe that Jesus is Lord or God. This is why Jesus said that if you don't believe that he is Lord or God you will die in your sins.

Christianity is a faith religion. We are called to believe things that cannot be believed by unbelievers. They are things of the Spirit that unbelievers do not have access to, 1 Corinthians 2:14. We spend a lot of time on the forum trying to convince these people that are void of the Spirit things of the Spirit.
 
Bociferous

Bociferous

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Jesus is telling us that if you do not believe that he is Lord or God you are lost. Plain and simple.
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Sometimes the Bible isn't as simple as we suppose. There are at least two ways of understanding the doctrine of belief as I see it.
1. Jesus is explaining that we're responsible to believe in Him.
2. Jesus is explaining a condition of belief without reference to responsibility.

Jn 8:24 and similar verses can be read either way. Why does #1 seem to be the obvious and simple answer?
 
Brother Ducky

Brother Ducky

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So, since you are not a Universalist, how is Christ the Savior of the whole world?

Even if you insist, like all good Calvinists do, that Christ is sufficient for the salvation of all individuals, you have to say that he actually saves some certain persons.

Right?
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Bociferous said:
Sometimes the Bible isn't as simple as we suppose. There are at least two ways of understanding the doctrine of belief as I see it.
1. Jesus is explaining that we're responsible to believe in Him.
2. Jesus is explaining a condition of belief without reference to responsibility.

Jn 8:24 and similar verses can be read either way. Why does #1 seem to be the obvious and simple answer?
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Jesus is telling us that if we do not believe that he is Lord or God we will die in our sins.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Brother Ducky said:
So, since you are not a Universalist, how is Christ the Savior of the whole world?

Even if you insist, like all good Calvinists do, that Christ is sufficient for the salvation of all individuals, you have to say that he actually saves some certain persons.

Right?
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Jesus is the savior of the whole world because he said he was, John 12:47.
 
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Samie

New member
In a human family with say 10 children, family members don't all have the same capability and therefore don't have the same responsibility. The youngest could be yet an infant in his diapers while the firstborn daughter could be in her early twenties doing the laundry. They don't know the same, don't do the same. But they all are members in the family, the parents giving responsibility to one of his children he knows is commensurate with the ability of the child.

And we all are in this BIG Family of God (Eph 2:11-19), where we all are in different spiritual levels of maturity, with siblings who could even be infants in Christ (1 Cor 3:1 NIV). I don't think we can expect the same belief system to exist in each of the individual members in this family of God. But just like the parts of the Body where not all parts function the same, each of us has his own peculiar responsibility which God wrote in the heart and mind of each of his children. And we all are accountable to what God has dynamically written in each of our hearts and minds. Rest assured that God will only require of us that level of responsibility commensurate with the spiritual level of maturity we have grown into.

We are moral beings growing up into the stature of Christ. We are not to pass judgments to those who might not have yet attained to our spiritual level of maturity and hence don't yet possess the spiritual knowledge we have. When one has grown into a stature such that he is ready for a new responsibility, God will send one of His children to inform him. Just like when He sent Philip to meet with the Ethiopian eunuch.

We are a spiritual temple in progress. We are still under construction. God is not finished with us just yet.
 
jamie

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
fishrovmen said:
So how does Jesus save someone who never responds to the Gospel? Were they born saved then "lost" their salvation?
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We are all born mortal subject to death. We must die either figuratively or literally before we can be judged.

Jesus bought two resurrections with his sacrifice. The Father gives some to Jesus now and the rest later.
 
Brother Ducky

Brother Ducky

New member
Since you have thought about this a lot more than I have, what are the condiciones sine quibus non of salvation? And are you willing to declare that any who do not believe all on your list to be lost?
 
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Bociferous

Bociferous

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Question is can you believe that Jesus is not the savior of the whole world and still be saved? The answer is no...
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How would you explain (without modifying what is clearly stated in order to make a doctrine work) Paul's position that, after carefully laying out exclusivist conditions--being grafted into Christ by faith or cut off from Him by lack thereof--he goes on to proclaim the mystery that all Israel will be saved, and confirms this startling statement in v.32?
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Samie said:
In a human family with say 10 children, family members don't all have the same capability and therefore don't have the same responsibility. The youngest could be yet an infant in his diapers while the firstborn daughter could be in her early twenties doing the laundry. They don't know the same, don't do the same. But they all are members in the family, the parents giving responsibility to one of his children he knows is commensurate with the ability of the child.

And we all are in this BIG Family of God (Eph 2:11-19), where we all are in different spiritual levels of maturity, with siblings who could even be infants in Christ (1 Cor 3:1 NIV). I don't think we can expect the same belief system to exist in each of the individual members in this family of God. But just like the parts of the Body where not all parts function the same, each of us has his own peculiar responsibility which God wrote in the heart and mind of each of his children. And we all are accountable to what God has dynamically written in each of our hearts and minds. Rest assured that God will only require of us that level of responsibility commensurate with the spiritual level of maturity we have grown into.

We are moral beings growing up into the stature of Christ. We are not to pass judgments to those who might not have yet attained to our spiritual level of maturity and hence don't yet possess the spiritual knowledge we have. When one has grown into a stature such that he is ready for a new responsibility, God will send one of His children to inform him. Just like when He sent Philip to meet with the Ethiopian eunuch.

We are a spiritual temple in progress. We are still under construction. God is not finished with us just yet.
Click to expand...


You may be under construction, but I am complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Bociferous said:
How would you explain (without modifying what is clearly stated in order to make a doctrine work) Paul's position that, after carefully laying out exclusivist conditions--being grafted into Christ by faith or cut off from Him by lack thereof--he goes on to proclaim the mystery that all Israel will be saved, and confirms this startling statement in v.32?
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Christians are spiritual Israel.
 
Bociferous

Bociferous

New member
Robert Pate said:
Christians are spiritual Israel.
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Looks like you have your hands full with others responding to the thread so I'll back out and give you a little peace. I do want to go on record as noting that you were unable to solve the mystery without modifying what Paul actually said with popular doctrine. The 'spiritual Israel' idea was grafted into literalism to cement in the idea of Christianity as an exclusivist religion. (It is, but not in the sense the church teaches it today) Paul shatters this false exclusivism in Rom 11 and elsewhere.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Bociferous said:
Looks like you have your hands full with others responding to the thread so I'll back out and give you a little peace. I do want to go on record as noting that you were unable to solve the mystery without modifying what Paul actually said with popular doctrine. The 'spiritual Israel' idea was grafted into literalism to cement in the idea of Christianity as an exclusivist religion. (It is, but not in the sense the church teaches it today) Paul shatters this false exclusivism in Rom 11 and elsewhere.
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No one will be saved that does not have faith in Christ and his Gospel. As far now, most of the Jews that I know of reject Christ and his Gospel. Perhaps this will change some day.
 
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