ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Order of Judgment and Consequences (Part 2)

[glorydaz]

This very answer now broaches upon the core teachings of Christ! A "lie" is a "sin" against one's self. Where fear is the motivator and not the "conscience", the "lie" is subjective to observation of the "heart".

Had Lon been past "accountability" and his "Lie" would have "harmed" another individual... this sin, in the absence of "personal knowledge of ones need for Jesus" would have rapidly affirmed or "brought" spiritual Death.

I speak now in a way to attempt to bring together the various viewpoints that we are all discussing. Not for false "unity", but to further spark discussion.

Nick said something the other day that has been brought to my mind by what you've written. Do people spiritually die when they sin since Christ became sin for all of us? It actually touches on what you've been saying, as well. What separates us from God IN FACT? It's unbelief, is it not?

As far as little four year old boys go...or even seven, I say they are little children. The Bible tells us we begin to go astray in our youth. Youth always refers to the "old enough to know better" age. Old enough to choose good over evil.

Psalm 25:7 Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O Lord.

Psalm 71:5 For thou art my hope, O Lord God: thou art my trust from my youth.

Psalm 71:17 O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works.​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I see that Eve fell through deception.
Adam's fall was not through deception.

Adam willingly took sin and death upon himself.
Jesus the last Adam did also.

If Adam had not done so, there would have never been a savior born that could save his beloved Eve from the clutches of the grave.
If Jesus had not done so, none of mankind could be set free from the grave.

And... as we are the "Body of Christ" and Israel is the "Body of Moses <Jude 1:9; Daniel 10:13> or Bride of Christ" ... we can see this all "Coming together" like Zechariah 14:4 (Eph. 5:25f) ... Chocolate and Ice Cream!

 

[Nang]

Who did Jesus defeat according to Heb. 2:14?

Jesus defeated Satan's ability to keep men enslaved through destroying the innate human "fear of death." Hebrews 2:15

IOW's Divine Truth and Grace will always overcome evil, absolutely.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Jesus defeated Satan's ability to keep men enslaved through destroying the innate human "fear of death." Hebrews 2:15

IOW's Divine Truth and Grace will always overcome evil, absolutely.

Let's evaluate the actual text here...

Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,​

Can you take an Arc angel on? I can't. It sounds cool and cinematic, but... I do believe that it is pretty important as it is an ongoing story within scripture.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Nick said something the other day that has been brought to my mind by what you've written. Do people spiritually die when they sin since Christ became sin for all of us? It actually touches on what you've been saying, as well. What separates us from God IN FACT? It's unbelief, is it not?

As far as little four year old boys go...or even seven, I say they are little children. The Bible tells us we begin to go astray in our youth. Youth always refers to the "old enough to know better" age. Old enough to choose good over evil.

Psalm 25:7 Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O Lord.

Psalm 71:5 For thou art my hope, O Lord God: thou art my trust from my youth.

Psalm 71:17 O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works.​

I'm about to jump up and dance! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!
[MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] ... adding in... Proverbs 22:6 and how it goes with (John 14:6)

 

[Nang]

I see that Eve fell through deception.
Adam's fall was not through deception.

Adam willingly took sin and death upon himself.
Jesus the last Adam did also.

If Adam had not done so, there would have never been a savior born that could save his beloved Eve from the clutches of the grave.
If Jesus had not done so, none of mankind could be set free from the grave.

This sounds good, but it does not mitigate Adam's sin and the curse of death brought upon all the creation.

I do not think Adam's sin of wanting to be like God, and his disobedience (unbelief) should be so mitigated and excused.

 

[Tambora]

I'm glad you brought this up, because it's a verse many people use to support the doctrine of original sin. This idea of being IN ADAM has been adulterated as this verse is NOT saying what has been claimed.

The death spoken of here is physical death, and "be made alive" is referring the resurrection from the dead (the just and the unjust are resurrected). Acts 24:15KJV

We see the subject being introduced right here. Christ died physically and rose physically.

1 Cor. 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:​

That's why ALL die and All are "made alive". It's talking about our bodies. That's what the whole chapter is about. Here' the clincher that is most often left out of the "proof texting".

1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.​

:thumb:

It's so nice to study with those that pay attention to what is in their peripheral vision, instead of wearing blinders that holds them to tunnel vision.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This sounds good, but it does not mitigate Adam's sin and the curse of death brought upon all the creation.

I do not think Adam's sin of wanting to be like God, and his disobedience (unbelief) should be so mitigated and excused.

Sin hardened the soil... (The Devil caused the Fall)

Adam wasn't the one that actually wanted to "be like God". Cain was the "official first". He took a specific matter into his hands. We were "Deceived" and "Coerced" in the Garden.

The Devil began to "Sew his Seed".

Outside the Garden is where the DRAGON rears his ugly head.

(Gen. 4:8) ... Note the "verbiage"... Rose up... (Isaiah 14:14) ... We see this addressed again here... (John 8:44)

Who, ALONE, is the TRUE ONE that has the POWER OF LIFE AND DEATH?

(Matthew 10:8, 28)

 

[Tambora]

This sounds good, but it does not mitigate Adam's sin and the curse of death brought upon all the creation.

Nobody is.

I do not think Adam's sin of wanting to be like God, and his disobedience (unbelief) should be so mitigated and excused.

Well, we disagree.
I don't see anywhere that says Adam wanted to be like GOD.
And I don't think Adam was in unbelief when he ate the fruit.
We have scripture that outright states that Adam was NOT deceived.
Eve may have thought that because she WAS deceived by the words of the serpent.
But Adam places no blame at all on the serpent for why he ate the fruit, and there is no mention of the serpent speaking to Adam (only Eve).

 

[Tambora]

Chocolate and Ice Cream!

YAY!

 

[glorydaz]

Physically, no not yet. We will be with the Lord physically at the rapture when our bodies are raised incorruptible.

As for our spirit?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


How one interprets 'spirit' can vary.
The 'breath of life' that all creatures have?
The Spirit that GOD sends as Comforter?
?
?
?

I'll add these for consideration.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I'll add these for consideration.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

​

This makes Romans 8:11 begin to make... EVEN More... Spiritual "Sense".

:thumb:

editing in... Note the verbiage... and again... does this add any Spiritual context to these words? ... (John 14:23)

 

[Tambora]

1 John 3:8 KJV
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


Notice the verse says he that committeth sin is of the devil, not of Adam.

Who dat?
Did the Son of God come to destroy the works of Adam or the works of the devil?
Who was sinning from the beginning? Was this Adam or someone else?

Anyone that commits sin is of the devil (not ... anyone that has Adam's sin imputed to them is of the devil).


Soooo, who dat?
Can we say "the devil" in the verse is referring to Adam?

 

[glorydaz]

This makes Romans 8:11 begin to make... EVEN More... Spiritual "Sense".

:thumb:

editing in... Note the verbiage... and again... does this add any Spiritual context to these words? ... (John 14:23)

I would only point out that the work done in our heart begins when he hear the "word of God", and this verse points out man is triune...body soul and spirit. I believe it's the hearing of the Gospel that causes our spirit to distinguish itself from the soul, and we become spiritual men rather than carnal.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

Of course the quote from John is talking about the Comforter (indwelling Holy Spirit) that could not come until Christ had risen.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

1 John 3:8 KJV
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


Notice the verse says he that committeth sin is of the devil, not of Adam.

Who dat?
Did the Son of God come to destroy the works of Adam or the works of the devil?
Who was sinning from the beginning? Was this Adam or someone else?

Anyone that commits sin is of the devil (not ... anyone that has Adam's sin imputed to them is of the devil).


Soooo, who dat?
Can we say "the devil" in the verse is referring to Adam?

Huge Grin! Exactly!!!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I would only point out that the work done in our heart begins when he hear the "word of God", and this verse points out man is triune...body soul and spirit. I believe it's the hearing of the Gospel that causes our spirit to distinguish itself from the soul, and we become spiritual men rather than carnal.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

Of course the quote from John is talking about the Comforter (indwelling Holy Spirit) that could not come until Christ had risen.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

This is a complex teaching that is only gleaned through ALL scripture! Perhaps you or Tam will launch a thread on it in the future. I had no desire to broach it, because many are perplexed by it. But I will say this... earlier... on another thread... I told someone there was a "difference" between "Ruach HaKadesh" and "The Holy Spirit" that is available after the Gospel is dispensed. We see that "Israel" in early acts receives the "Rushing Wind", but we also see that the full measure of "DISPENSATION" isn't understood until a man named Saul is grabbed up by the very "VOICE" that boomed from above Mount Sinai.

Is it me or did we just cover Genesis to Revelation in the last 3 pages?

:thumb:

 

[dodge]

Evil.Eye.<(I)>;4984120]Sin hardened the soil... (The Devil caused the Fall)

Adam wasn't the one that actually wanted to "be like God". Cain was the "official first". He took a specific matter into his hands. We were "Deceived" and "Coerced" in the Garden.

EE , I believe Eve was the first that wanted to be like God . That was part of the temptation Satan laid out for her.

Gen 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[glorydaz]

Ever wonder why Eve is called the mother of all living, but Adam is not called the father of all living?


Genesis 3:20 KJV
(20) And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

It's interesting....especially since we now know that every living being can be traced back to Eve through Mitochondrial DNA. Adam named her rightly after all.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

EE , I believe Eve was the first that wanted to be like God . That was part of the temptation Satan laid out for her.

Gen 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

I agree Dodge... but this was a deception of creating a sense of "Privation" (I understand that word thanks to [MENTION=9592]Shasta[/MENTION]) within Eve's mind.

Eve looked the best she was going to look to Adam in her birthday suit, but that old Dragon made her feel "lacking" and in this sense, she reached for what she had no need of. I am referring to this... (Gen. 2:16)

Note that the scribes decided to break up Gen. 2:16 from Gen. 2:17. I'm not saying that we can count on the additional breaks that were added to scripture after it was recorded, but I am noting that this makes a strong point.

If I say a cuss word in front of my teacher because some other kid told me to go say the "A Christmas Story" version of "fudge" to my teacher, I have been "deceived" and done something I didn't understand.

I don't claim to not use words of such nature... (I was oil field and Navy)... but I'm trying to make a point that conveys my thoughts on the matter. Does this make sense?

 

[glorydaz]

Seems to imply 'life giver'.

Interesting concept for the one deceived to be a life giver. Or is it?

1 Timothy 2:13-15 KJV
(13) For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
(14) And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
(15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


Isaiah 7:14 KJV
(14) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

:think: :scripto: