ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Order of Judgment and Consequences (Part 2)

[glorydaz]

What happens to those who die physically? Do they go to heaven with the Lord?

If you're talking about the innocent, then I would say yes. I say that for two reasons.

First, God created man with the knowledge of God built right in him, and it's only when he rejects God and becomes vain in his imaginations that his foolish heart is darkened.

Romans 1:19-21 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

Second, Jesus died for all. He was our death for sin, so sin was taken care of at the cross.

2 Cor. 5:14-15 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Sinless as in has not committed a sin.
Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

I believe that God would be "guilty" of SIN if what you say is not correct. Can you think of any "LAWS" that state it is unLAWFUL to charge a "guiltless" man with "a charge"?

:thumb:

 

[Nang]

Sure, one that breaks a law is a lawbreaker.
If there is no law to break, there can be no lawbreakers.

Sooooo, all those things that the law said were sins, those things were not sins when there was no law. Right?

The Law was immediately established in the garden, when God gave Adam commands. Genesis 1:28, 2:17

In addition, Adam possessed the witness of natural law all around him, to which he did not respond positively, nor with reverence for the Creator, nor evidenced any will to obey his Creator's will and word.

So, in actuality, Adam was created under God's natural law, in a state of innocent probation, and was given formal promises and commands (Covenant Law), which apparently he breached fairly soon in time. Genesis 2:15-17

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The answer is no. The Lord Jesus Christ declared no one had been to heaven but him, which is where he came from. Those looking forward to the savior went to paradise in the land of the dead. After Paul, those in Christ who die go to the Lord.

My Compliments.

You said...

What happens to those who die physically? Do they go to heaven with the Lord?

To which I responded...

This is an outstanding question!!! I won't outright answer it... but I will state that upon death... "The Spirit returns to He Who gave it"... but the "Soul" is a matter that is subject to variables that make an obvious "Yes or No" answer quite impossible to your well crafted question.

You just managed to pack 1 Ton of TNT into a 1 Pound box!

So... I will come clean. You are partially correct and dispensationally on the money.

The Bosom of Abraham (Luke 16:22) is the "Biblical" term for the "Paradise" you speak of. And Jesus referred to it when He spoke to the "Thief on the Cross".

However, Elijah and Enoch (Gen. 5:24) did go to be in the presence of the Lord, before the full Gospel of Grace was dispensed. editing in... there is most likely one other who was brought into the presence of God. We see him here... (Luke 9:30)

I know you like to be biblically precise, so I figured you would take this well.

- EE

 

[Tambora]

But... Tambora... who FATHERED Adam?

Who fathered Eve?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The Law was immediately established in the garden, when God gave Adam commands. Genesis 1:28, 2:17

In addition, Adam possessed the witness of natural law all around him, to which he did not respond positively, nor with reverence for the Creator, nor evidenced any will to obey his Creator's will and word.

So, in actuality, Adam was created under God's natural law, in a state of innocent probation, and was given formal promises and commands (Covenant Law), which apparently he breached fairly soon in time. Genesis 2:15-17

If what you say is true... Then God gave the knowledge of Good and Evil that very moment. Think about what you are saying.

You discount Paul's words... (Rm. 7:9)

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Who fathered Eve?

(Gen. 2:21f)

:thumb:

 

[Nang]

Who fathered Eve?

Neither Adam nor Eve were "fathered" nor "begotten."

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

No command = No Law

No law = No sin

Sin is disobedience, so there must first be something existent to disobey.

Romans 7:7-12

You are discounting Christ's very words that I am defending by this OP.

(John 16:9-11: 9 The world’s sin is unbelief in me; 10 there is righteousness available because I go to the Father and you shall see me no more; 11 there is deliverance from judgment because the prince of this world has already been judged.)

You are putting the ... watch for it [MENTION=6141]Nick M[/MENTION] and [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] ... em-phas-sis on the wrong syl-la-ble.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Neither Adam nor Eve were "fathered" nor "begotten."

OIC

I agree neither of them were :Begotten:

But... They indeed had a FATHER (Col. 1:15; Is. 9:6)

 

[Nang]

If what you say is true... Then God gave the knowledge of Good and Evil that very moment. Think about what you are saying.

You discount Paul's words... (Rm. 7:9)

I do not discount Romans 7:9 . . I have already referred to this Scripture.

See my post #84.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I do not discount Romans 7:9 . . I have already referred to this Scripture.

See my post #84.

My apologies. You clearly don't correctly understand Romans 7:9.

 

[glorydaz]

Was Adam capable of sinning before the command of the tree was given?
In other words, could Adam have sinned before any command was made?

No, he wouldn't have even known there was such a thing as sin.

Rom. 7:7b Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.​

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

No, he wouldn't have even known there was such a thing as sin.

Rom. 7:7b Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.​

 

[Nang]

No, he wouldn't have even known there was such a thing as sin.

Rom. 7:7b Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.​

Genesis 2:17 = Prophecy, formal Law (command), warning of death.

Adam simply did not believe anything God told him.

What is sin?

Unbelief. John 3:18-20

 

[Tambora]

The Law was immediately established in the garden, when God gave Adam commands. Genesis 1:28, 2:17

In addition, Adam possessed the witness of natural law all around him, to which he did not respond positively, nor with reverence for the Creator, nor evidenced any will to obey his Creator's will and word.

So, in actuality, Adam was created under God's natural law, in a state of innocent probation, and was given formal promises and commands (Covenant Law), which apparently he breached fairly soon in time. Genesis 2:15-17

Natural law?
If Adam had this 'natural law' you speak of BEFORE he ate the fruit, then why did he not know he was naked?

 

[Nang]

Natural law?
If Adam had this 'natural law' you speak of BEFORE he ate the fruit, then why did he not know he was naked?

Scripture does not say A&E did not know they were naked. It says they "were not ashamed" for being naked. Genesis 2:24

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Genesis 2:17 = Prophecy, formal Law (command), warning of death.

Adam simply did not believe anything God told him.

What is sin?

Unbelief. John 3:18-20

Who coaxed Eve (1 Tim. 2:14) into "unbelief"?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Natural law?
If Adam had this 'natural law' you speak of BEFORE he ate the fruit, then why did he not know he was naked?

:thumb:

45 seconds in-between posts... Bah!!!!

 

[Tambora]

Adam simply did not believe anything God told him.

I believe he did. Adam was not deceived when he ate the fruit, as Eve was (1 Tim 2:14). He ate knowingly and willingly, with no deception.