The answer is no. The Lord Jesus Christ declared no one had been to heaven but him, which is where he came from. Those looking forward to the savior went to paradise in the land of the dead. After Paul, those in Christ who die go to the Lord.
ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Order of Judgment and Consequences (Part 2)
- Thread starter Evil.Eye.<(I)>
- Start date
The answer is no. The Lord Jesus Christ declared no one had been to heaven but him, which is where he came from. Those looking forward to the savior went to paradise in the land of the dead. After Paul, those in Christ who die go to the Lord.
Lon
Well-known member
Imho, it needs proof, rather than a supposition. There were a good number more bible verses, that I believe all (or most) need addressing in that post.
For instance: why did the Lord Jesus Christ insist the little children come to Him, if they didn't need Him? :think: To me, that doesn't add up. See what I mean?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
How is "living" defined?
In Adam all die and in Christ all are made alive.
Which is referred to in Genesis 3:20?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
No command = No Law
No law = No sin
Sin is disobedience, so there must first be something existent to disobey.
Romans 7:7-12
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Genesis 3:15: promise of a Savior from "her seed."
Indeed. It is chipmunks that hibernate. I hope this doesn't defame [MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] 's love for that particular author.
Lon
Well-known member
At this point, reading scripture and considering them is more important than my summation or thoughts over the matter. Whatever we understand of how we are born, it better be wrought upon the words of God. John 14:6 tells us there is only one way, for all of us.
I need to 'listen' to what people think about that. No hasty judgements, I've done that already. Let's hear what people believe without jumping to conclusions. To me it 'looked' Pelagius. I was premature jumping that direction. Even if it looks like a Pelagian, walks like a Pelagian, or quacks like a Pelagian. I need to see how everyone's doctrine walks out. I jumped the gun and would like to hear 1) 'If' anyone even thinks their view is Pelagian, if everyone's view is 'sinless birth' even, etc. Simply saying "Pelagian" and nailing it to the wall, from what I am hearing, is 'a strawman.' I don't need to be burning that strawguy down. Nobody would care because "that ain't me" is the reply.
Yes, that is my attempt and in a way, my apology. I'm trying to restimulate discussion that I inadvertently or purposefully shut down. I'm trying to figure out my motive as such. I haven't heard 'born sinless' since my days in the UMC, so I had some adverse reaction that I should have kept a bit longer in check. Somebody should have said "I'm Pelagian" before I jumped their myself.
Hello Nang...
I extend welcome to you here. I love your input. As long as you don't accuse anyone of heresy or throw labels into this discussion, I am your servant, on this thread.
- EE
Nang
TOL Subscriber
There should be a rule on TOL for repeating the same post, over and over, ad nauseam . . .
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Bah . . .
I make no promises to you, sir.
You have no right to tell me what I can or cannot post.
Nang,
Jerry has a solid point. Please stop trying to squelch discussion. Jerry's addition to this is fair. Take him on via scripture with humility and strength of stance.
If you discount him with labels, cries of heresy or rules... you haven't succeeded at your goal.
Fair enough?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The teaching that the sons of Adam are "born sinless" is a lie. Any Christian should react negatively to any such kind of unbiblical falsehood.
The teaching that Adam was "born sinless" in a temporal state of innocence is biblically accurate, and Christians should be able to discuss his original condition, without denying the fallen condition of humankind.
Sure, one that breaks a law is a lawbreaker.
If there is no law to break, there can be no lawbreakers.
Sooooo, all those things that the law said were sins, those things were not sins when there was no law. Right?
Then you can clearly see your comment to [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] was useless, as we can't tell him what to post either. I confess that I admire your tenacity.
- EE
:carryon:
Sinless as in has not committed a sin.
Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
No he does not. Jerry is speculating and propagating a falsehood.
Discussion does not trump Truth.
Jerry is not posting Truth and he has been repeatedly corrected with Holy Scripture, but he does not repent of his errors and untruths.
My only goal is to stand for the Gospel Truth and thereby glorify the name of Jesus Christ.
As for fairness, you evidence you have no idea what it means.
This is absolutarion and squelches biblical discussion. Lon is correct to stimulate discussion. If any party is wrong, biblically, they won't see it unless discussion fosters them an opportunity to see for them-self where they could improve their understanding. Wisdom is in my words Nang.
I'm culminating many Proverbs with what I have written to you.
- EE
Please Nang... I'm asking you humbly... do not derail my thread. Thank you kindly. I will give you two more strikes before I recognize you as incapable of civilized discussion.
But... Tambora... who FATHERED Adam? Who's "Breath" brought "Life" to Adam and thus is the very source of ALL life?
:thumb: