ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Order of Judgment and Consequences (Part 2)

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Paul with stood Peter to his face because he was to be blamed. Think about it.




I will state this. Christianity in the Body of Christ is not a changed life. It is an exchanged life. You should do what is right because it is right. Don't think you do right and God looks at your filthy rags and says "good job".

Hi Nick,

I count myself the chiefest of sinners and the most in need of Jesus. I never go past this and never have. As far as the other matter...

I have no issue admonishing or standing up for the truth of scripture... or especially... The TRUTH... but He doesn't really need defending. It is when what I have to say isn't essential doctrine and I am harming a friend that is in Jesus that I see matters as sketchy. I never back down, but there is a bunch going on right now.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You missed the part about one point at a time. Adam didn't allow anything. He listed to his wife instead of God and ate the fruit. God explicitly states this in Genesis 3....through Moses.

Nick,

I'm under pressure that is outside of ToL and there is a lot going on behind the scenes. I don't mean to say so much at once, but I have limited times to respond, and this is how it goes.

As far as Adam "listening to his wife". I never disagreed, but suggested that there is more to those words than meats the initial eye. Moses wasn't the only one that wrote on the matter.

God is not a micro-manager. The Bible bears this out. Does he intervene? Yes! Does he micro-manage? No! But because Adam sinned, the world is condemned. And not just man.

To reduce the worlds condemnation to Adam's sin is to unwittingly say that our sin doesn't matter. I don't need Adams mistakes, as I make my own daily, and thus never, ever leave that place of grace. Honestly... if you can get two sentences into anything I write and not see that I count myself "evil"... you have missed the very way I express myself.

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

I fully agree with this and have fully agreed from the get go. I keep emphasizing the Laws place in this discussion and it is good to see it in your words.

The law reveals sin. You know this right? The law is a tutor to show you need a savior. People covet, and the law teaches us that we are unrighteous because of it. The law proves our guilt. Jesus demanded Israel keep the law, but don't forget he told them that Moses will be their accuser. Meaning the law Moses gave.

I couldn't agree more. Moses is a "good" accuser, while the "Accuser" is the one that implores people to try to pass on their own filthy rags, or to point out the filthy rags of others.

There is textual depth to your rhythm here, that actually aligns with much that I am saying. I will just say it though... you are selling the message that is in the Eden account short by limiting the implications of what occurred in the garden to simple "disobedience" and fall. There is much more to it, and all scripture agrees.

I imagine I will need to think of how to break this matter down, point by point, and then try again. Honestly... there are those that are indoctrinated that are losing their minds over what is being said of late, and though I hammer home matters... I'm sort of ....

discouraged right now.

- EE

Here is an easy one for you.

Do yo deserve to die the second death?

I fully DESERVE utter Penalty.

 

[Nick M]

Hi Nick,

I count myself the chiefest of sinners and the most in need of Jesus.

What do you mean? Do you not belong to him?

I have no issue admonishing or standing up for the truth of scripture...

:up:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

What do you mean? Do you not belong to him?




:up:

Praise Jesus! Oh yes... He knows me like no other and cloths me with His Love. His righteousness is all that's left... my works are dead. All of them. They are in the tomb, as I am. I am only "alive" because He is "Alive" within me.

I am His and I claim Him as mine. His Love is the most sacred part of my life.

 

[Nick M]

To reduce the worlds condemnation to Adam's sin is to unwittingly say that our sin doesn't matter.

it does no such thing. God authorizes governments to act in his name. No need for us to debate how governments profane him now, just that he authorizes governments to execute wicked. Including a Christian if they murder or commit adultery. They still have eternal life. But they are to be executed by the state.

I fully agree with this and have fully agreed from the get go. I keep emphasizing the Laws place in this discussion and it is good to see it in your words.

The law is our teacher. I am glad you know this. It proves our need for a savior.

And I vehemently disagree that there is much more to Adam disobeying God, then Adam disobeying God. The consequences are severe, they are death. Including all of creation.

 

[Nick M]

I fully DESERVE utter Penalty.

That puts you way ahead of the vast majority of people on this planet. Do you believe that he died for your sin, all of it, and was raised again?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

That puts you way ahead of the vast majority of people on this planet. Do you believe that he died for your sin, all of it, and was raised again?

Free ticket home for me... My debt is paid IN FULL. He is bound to us in the very flesh of humanity. The Son is truly one with us, though many reject Him. Not only was He raised, but He is (Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19).

It only cost me the relinquishment of my human pride and belief. It cost Him "EVERYTHING".

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

it does no such thing. God authorizes governments to act in his name. No need for us to debate how governments profane him now, just that he authorizes governments to execute wicked. Including a Christian if they murder or commit adultery. They still have eternal life. But they are to be executed by the state.

This is where I would say that you are in need of seeing what I am saying. I believe in justice. But I believe your oversimplification is yielding a bit of law into the matter. In other words... you are suggesting that God is judging the flesh in this statement and this is in utter disconnect from Jesus words. You know I am a rabbid Zionist and Dispensationalist... but He is the same today, yesterday and forever. He desires Mercy, not judgment. It is the ruler of this world that sways the scales of death. I was in the military and would do it again. I worked in the prison system and I understand the need for law. However, Jesus is far removed from human judgment of the flesh.

The law is our teacher. I am glad you know this. It proves our need for a savior.

Amen

And I vehemently disagree that there is much more to Adam disobeying God, then Adam disobeying God. The consequences are severe, they are death. Including all of creation.

Well... I vehemently disagree there... I implore you to see that our black and white view is far removed from the one that "sees the heart". And yet... I agree to disagree.

I can privately grant you the right to be wrong, within my "evil" mind.

- EE

 

[Nick M]

Romans 13

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

This is where Christians get lost and stay in the milk. The Lord Jesus Christ died for sin, the state of being. That is not about behavior. It is not mixing the law, in fact, it is the opposite. Behavior of the people has no bearing on nor is proof of salvation.

 

[Lon]

Lon,

I have compassion for what you have written. I have to confess... it is the idea that you are looking at discussion through a lens that is pre-made, that doesn't address what is actually being said that has frustrated me. However... you are my brother in Christ. Instead of attacking you, rebutting you or calling you names, I will simply state that what is being discussed is Theology, while we are mutually in continual need for Jesus.

This is what we both desire. I think the real problem of all theology is that once a man of flesh gets a hold of it, it becomes something other than intent. For both of us, this has been seen and witnessed. We stand united. I fairly understand your position. Likewise, I'd suspect you see more than I, the problem with any sense of liberal and mean Calvinism. I've seen this too and own it. We are not the nicest group of people. I will never be that guy, but when ineptly I find I'm there. Such is my clod feet, and you are correct, such is here as well. I think you are correct, that Calvinists do not cotton to anything that even smells of heresy because we too, are accused of it, so are very consciously aware of that which we espouse that is seen as heresy by others (at least this Calvinist). And because we have to defend, we are ever conscious of that which is heretical against us. In that sense, I don't hate being called a Calvinist, so not wanting to be called a Pelagian is a bit different than expectation. Much could be said about labels like OTOV or MAD or Reformed or Calvinism etc. We are or aren't what we eat. That is to say, I think we resemble all of this to some degree and labelling, for me, is a service, rather than accusatory. Forgive me for verbosity.

This boils down to this... Theology doesn't and can't save us... Only Jesus can save us. In this I will read your counter view on this matter, and allow you to belittle my ideas without rebuttal. This way, I won't feel like I'm placing ideas over Jesus and our Friendship.

In one sense, the larger sense, I agree. However, bad theology can kill. A Mormon must necessarily drop Mormonism and become a Saint Alive. Here is the question: Did I need the Lord Jesus Christ at age seven? Is there a need to 'let the little children come' to Him, if there is 'no need?' Sinless doctrine has a lot of scriptures not making any sense any longer, to me. If "I" espoused it, I'd have to question myself why I'd have to question John 14:6 and not take it at face value. As it is, where I am at now, I fully believe John 14:6 means all, without exception and it 'seems' to me, that is how the Lord Jesus Christ meant it. How do you see John 14:6 as a holder of sinless doctrine?

What I can't do is stop talking about how amazing Jesus is or how wonderful His ways are. I have been struggling to avoid attack of reform to afford a brain, spirit, heart, soul and scripture led discussion about ideas, without being scolded by people that have conformed doctrine that was settled for them by others.

I apologize for scolding of my Reformed brothers or sisters. It isn't my intention to scold. I do realize the Reformed community is notorious for scolding. It is not mine, by any intention. My clod feet? Yeah, I may accidentally step on toes, but it is as unintentional or at least regrettable as all get-out. I don't like making friends unnecessarily uncomfortable or threatened. I do think any discussion regarding Free will doctrine will 'naturally' be uncomfortable.

Sincerely, and Not sure where to process everything going on right now,

As you need me, you have me. I'm here and will neglect any other thread for the time being if need be.

- EE

About big feet... Have you ever seen me discuss matters for more than several days without stepping on toes? I'm guilty of the same matter. Perhaps this is one more reason I like you Lon. Sons of Thunder, whether soft spoken or loud, are necessary and "keep people on their toes".

Well, that too. I'm working on being gentle to all, especially atheists, agnostics, and heretics. Once GD and you had your toes caressed by me, I've been trying not to dance so hard. That and I'm looking for a good pair of slippers. Your brother, in Him -Lon

 

[glorydaz]

One point at a time. You are trying to build on something, we all do it. But you can't build if the foundation is false. I just pointed out what the Bible says. And on the first or second page, depending on the font size it says this.

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

And as such, Paul tells us this.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

If you are trying to make a point of silly things like infant water baptism, you will get no argument from me. It's nonsense. However, you appear to be claiming that 5:18 doesn't exist or is not true. All are condemned because Adam listened to his wife instead of God and ate the fruit.

The offence is what you quoted above. I believe 5:18, but I read it this way.


Here is the judgment that came to all men.

Gen. 3:17-19 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

The "resulting in condemnation" comes about when we choose evil over good, by heeding the "god of this world" who is ever close at hand. Not that we're condemned when we come out of the womb, or inherited Adam's sin.

 

[Nick M]

The "resulting in condemnation" comes about when we choose evil over good, by heeding the "god of this world" who is ever close at hand. Not that we're condemned when we come out of the womb, or inherited Adam's sin.

Why not just go with what Paul stated in Romans 5 as to what he means in Romans 5? Paul says all died. People twist it. So he has to say "therefore", knowing the wrong conclusion will be given. The conclusion is condemnation. Tilling the ground is not condemnation. They were cast from the garden.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,

17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one,

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,

 

[Tambora]

Do you believe that he died for your sin, all of it, and was raised again?

Yep, every last one, yep.
HALLELUJAH!

 

[glorydaz]

Why not just go with what Paul stated in Romans 5 as to what he means in Romans 5? Paul says all died. People twist it. So he has to say "therefore", knowing the wrong conclusion will be given. The conclusion is condemnation. Tilling the ground is not condemnation. They were cast from the garden.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,

17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one,

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,

I think I am going by what Paul says.


The verse says that JUDGMENT came to all men. That judgment was the CURSE. We are condemned to dwell in this world of sin and death...and satan is it's god. Of course that doesn't mean that God is not here, too.


All men are subject to the same curse as Adam, and that includes physical death. So, yes, all men die. Another result of the curse is that the very ground was cursed, and yes they were cast from the garden. I see that sin entered the world...it didn't enter man.

What I do not see is any guilt being passed down to Adam's offspring, man being born a sinner is not in the CURSE anywhere, nor do I see it in that text.

 

[Lon]

A few verses for consideration:

James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Is Glory correct? Does 'sin' bring death or are we born under the condition? The first verse seems to say 'desire' lures us to sin. Did God create us purposefully to 'desire' sin? My first sin was likely lying. I remember such as one of my first anyway. I had squirted Vaseline on a tree. I was four and my step father told us he was going to spank the one who did. It turns out that all of us had done it, but I think I was the first. I wasn't meaning to do anything wrong, but 'spank' had me lying that I did not do it and I was frightened (he was mean, and inappropriate for spanking us frankly). Yet, I sinned and I knew it was wrong to lie. Did that sin come from me, or from without me?

Isaiah 40:6,7;29-31; 64:6,7
Once we get to chapter 64, the text clearly says 'all' and takes no account at all for 'innocent' children.

Psalm 103:14 Ezekiel 34:16 God had promised to 'seek that which is lost.'

Romans 3:9-13 All are 'under sin.' Even if one argued that sin must be done, for death to occur, it seems this verse is clearly saying we are born 'under' the curse of sin, not free of it. Going back to James, it 'seems' that the enticement is not how God made us, but that we are born with a desire, that leads to acting upon those very impulses that we are 'under.'
Isn't it 'what comes out of us, that makes us sinners/unclean?' Matthew 15:18-20; 23:25-28
1 John 1:8-10 How soon would a child understand 'not' to claim they have not sinned? Four? "Timmy, did you do this?" Timmy: "No...."
If Timmy is lying, and we as parents know he isn't always telling the truth, where does it come from (assuming you or I weren't tards like my stepfather)?


Luke 18:16 Jesus says to let the children come unto Him. He then says 'for the Kingdom belongs to such as these.' #1 What kingdom? Is it specifically Jewish? If so, then it isn't talking about Innocence, but inheritance and I'm thinking of MAD by such. If it is about Heaven, I'd still want to know if we are assuming 'innocence. Rather, the Lord Jesus Christ tells us in Matthew 18:2-6 that faith and malleability are the child-like desires or virtues He wants us emulating, not their morality. To me, if my morality is only developed as a child's, I'd not really be very moral. I'd lie, steal, and hit my sister and want my food when I want it as well as throw what my wife made upon the floor if I didn't like it.

Just thoughts. Assail them as you will, I'm just wanting to discuss scriptures and have them make sense from a 'sinless birth' perspective because at the moment, they don't. Thanks. -Lon

 

[glorydaz]

A few verses for consideration:

James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Is Glory correct? Does 'sin' bring death or are we born under the condition? The first verse seems to say 'desire' lures us to sin. Did God create us purposefully to 'desire' sin? My first sin was likely lying. I remember such as one of my first anyway. I had squirted Vaseline on a tree. I was four and my step father told us he was going to spank the one who did. It turns out that all of us had done it, but I think I was the first. I wasn't meaning to do anything wrong, but 'spank' had me lying that I did not do it and I was frightened (he was mean, and inappropriate for spanking us frankly). Yet, I sinned and I knew it was wrong to lie. Did that sin come from me, or from without me?

That sin was committed against you.

Suffer the little children to come unto me, for such is the kingdom of heaven. Unless you be converted and become as one of these you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Do you think these little kids were better than you were at that age? You'd be wrong.

You didn't sin. That was typical childish misbehaviour. Good grief!!!!!!!

What kind of a God do you think you serve, Lon? Shall not the Judge of the whole earth do right?

 

[Danoh]

That sin was committed against you.

Suffer the little children to come unto me, for such is the kingdom of heaven. Unless you be converted and become as one of these you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Do you think these little kids were better than you were at that age? You'd be wrong.

You didn't sin. That was typical childish misbehaviour. Good grief!!!!!!!

What kind of a God do you think you serve, Lon? Shall not the Judge of the whole earth do right?

He said he knew right from wrong; that he knew he was lying.

 

[glorydaz]

He said he knew right from wrong; that he knew he was lying.

I don't believe him. I can remember being that age, and I know what fear can do to an innocent little child. The wrong person frowns at them and they about melt into the ground....wishing they could disappear. That wasn't his conscience, it was FEAR.

 

[Danoh]

I don't believe him. I can remember being that age, and I know what fear can do to an innocent little child. The wrong person frowns at them and they about melt into the ground....wishing they could disappear. That wasn't his conscience, it was FEAR.

I remember my first day in preschool vividly; including the movie about spring, and the water, and the beavers building dams, and the narrator saying "In the Spring, the squirrels come out of hibernation, and the beavers can be seen romping in the warm waters..."

I doubt the guy is alone in remembering such a moment - especially given its' drama...

 

[glorydaz]

I remember my first day in preschool vividly; including the movie about spring, and the water, and the beavers building dams, and the narrator saying "In the Spring, the squirrels come out of hibernation, and the beavers can be seen romping in the warm waters..."

I doubt the guy is alone in remembering such a moment - especially given its' drama...

I'm not saying he doesn't remember the event. I'm just saying it wasn't the guilt of sin he was experiencing. It was outright fear. Fear and guilt are quite similar, as I'm sure you know.