Church government is not hierarchical

brewmama

brewmama

New member
iouae said:
In Revelation Christ gives instructions to 7 churches.
These are obviously Christ's churches.
All have problems and issues.
Christ always seems to be appealing to the individual believer to overcome.
Christ never seems to be appealing to a hierarchy to sort out the problem.
One always gets the feeling that it boils down to individual responsibility.
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So you ignore all the epistles from various Apostles to their churches, as in hierarchy giving them instruction?
 
brewmama

brewmama

New member
SaulToPaul said:
The Eleven apostles.

How does it change Matthew 10:23 (KJV)?
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It was the last instruction Jesus gave them. The opaque, totally reinterpreted verse you keep alluding too, which came before the crucifixion, isn't even an instruction except to flee from cities that persecuted them. Honestly, if you can't see the difference, you are hopelessly mired in your own blindness.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
brewmama said:
It was the last instruction Jesus gave them. The opaque, totally reinterpreted verse you keep alluding too, which came before the crucifixion, isn't even an instruction except to flee from cities that persecuted them. Honestly, if you can't see the difference, you are hopelessly mired in your own blindness.
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It doesn't change Matthew 10:23 (KJV).

Why would you want to nullify the LORD's clear words?

I know why. And you should be ashamed of yourself.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
The LORD told them they would not have finished going to the cities of Israel until he came. And they didn't. May as well accept it.

They will finish Matthew 28:19 (KJV) when he returns.

Accept it, and drop the fables your church has fed you in order to bolster their hold over you.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
When and where was the "coming of the Son of Man" anything but the Second Coming?

Matthew 10:23 (KJV) is clear, and the Lord meant what he said.
 
L

Logos1560

New member
chrysostom said:
since he does not recognize the authority of rome

is he not making himself the authority?
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Incorrect. The Lord Jesus Christ is the head of the church.

The instructions from the head of the church to his church are found in the New Testament.

A person accepting and following the authority of the head [the Lord Jesus Christ] would not be making himself the authority.
 
chrysostom

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Logos1560 said:
Incorrect. The Lord Jesus Christ is the head of the church.

The instructions from the head of the church to his church are found in the New Testament.

A person accepting and following the authority of the head [the Lord Jesus Christ] would not be making himself the authority.
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so who is the authority on what Jesus said?
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
brewmama said:
So you ignore all the epistles from various Apostles to their churches, as in hierarchy giving them instruction?
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I don't see hierarchy. I just see those whom Christ taught, teaching others, who teach others, who teach others...

Every person teaches every other person all through the day.
A wife may teach her husband how to better wash the dishes.
Does that make the husband forever her serf?
A younger son may teach his father how to connect to the internet. Does that make the father forever the son's vassal?

Likewise if someone leads me to the Gospel, does that make me forever his slave?
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
chrysostom said:
they ignore logic and reason
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Originally Posted by brewmama
"So you ignore all the epistles from various Apostles to their churches, as in hierarchy giving them instruction?"

Chrys and Brewmama

I believe in sola scriptura. So I take what the Apostles wrote to the churches as the ultimate authority over my life. Do you?
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
iouae said:
It is a characteristic of cults, that they usually adopt a hierarchical form of church government.

I believe Christ taught exactly the opposite - that the leader must be the servant. I do not believe any Christian can domineer another's faith walk.

I never see Peter or Paul ever ordering anyone to do anything on the basis of their supposed "authority".

Look at the democratic manner in which the biggest crisis (circumcision) was resolved in Acts 15...

"6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.... ALL TALK

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said...
...INCLUDING PETER...

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul,...
....THEN BARNABUS AND PAUL TALK....

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:....
...THEN JAMES TALKS (BTW this James being the half-brother of Jesus, son of Mary) AND JAMES SEEMS TO SETTLE THE MATTER...

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas;....
...THEN THE WHOLE CHURCH REACHES A CONSENSUS WHICH PLEASES ALL....

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia....
THEN THEY WRITE LETTERS IN THE NAME OF ALL THE BELIEVERS, NOT A POPE...

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. 32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them....
...JUDAS AND SILAS DON'T ORDER ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING, RATHER THEY CONFIRM THEM, OR ESTABLISH AND STRENGTHEN THEM IN RIGHT DOING.

Even in this earliest crisis in the Christian Church we do not see one Christian ever ordering another Christian around or domineering the other's faith walk.
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If the Puritans had believed that, there would be no America for you to be able to say this freely. It was just what you are castigating that held them together and developed the sense of community (in contrast to anarchical individualism) and keeping one another held to a higher standard and submitting to authority that enabled law and order to arise (seemingly) out of nowhere. Anarchy and totalitarianism are cut from the same rebellious cloth.
 
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