Church government is not hierarchical

brewmama

New member
Then sign me up for that form of hierarchy.

It's already present, in the Orthodox Church.

Christ trained 12 apostles to teach others. Of course they are the ones teaching what Christ taught them. And they are not making up rules at all. They are passing on what Christ taught.
Exactly. As a hierarchy. Which continues.



They were leaders to train disciples, who in turn would lead others. That is how Christianity spread. But no apostle was subject to another apostle. No newbie is subject to any apostle except voluntarily if he wanted salvation.
Not sure what you mean by "no newbie is subject to any apostle except voluntarily..."
If he joins the church he IS subject to the apostle (or bishop)
Otherwise, you seem to be agreeing about hierarchy, so no argument.


I quite like the little I read about the Orthodox Church which has no Pope, but has a cell structure with leaders. "Autocephalous" I think they called it.
Well, each church is under a Patriarch, with a more local Metropolitan and bishop under him. And the Roman Church is under the Bishop of Rome. We are not in communion with them however. At this point.


I don't know why you bring this up, so probably you are not speaking of accepting Christ when one comes of age.
Actually I am, it was the post I was answering that used it incorrectly.



Which chapter and verse of the Bible says that?

John 19:26–27: Woman, behold your son. Son Behold your mother. He wouldn't have done that if Mary had other sons.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Exactly. As a hierarchy. Which continues.

Not sure what you mean by "no newbie is subject to any apostle except voluntarily..."
If he joins the church he IS subject to the apostle (or bishop)
Otherwise, you seem to be agreeing about hierarchy, so no argument.

Christianity is spread by "Each one Teach one".

Someone older in the faith brings someone not in the faith, into the faith. Thus, the newbie is taught by the elder.

Because Christianity is not rocket science, this takes a short while.

That person is then qualified as an "elder" in the faith to teach the next newbie.

There is no hierarchy here except briefly and temporarily.
The older in the faith has no power to order the newbie to do anything.
It is totally voluntary on both parts, if the older wishes to teach, and if the younger wishes to learn.
It is how humans have passed on knowledge and customs through the ages.

Where Church Hierarchy goes seriously wrong is to ...
1) formalise the relationship making one person the Bishop of another
2) make the teacher-student relationship permanent
3) think that the first one in the faith from then on forever controls those later in the faith.
4) institute sacraments which the first-in-the-faith alone and forever can administer to the later-in-the-faith so making that a formal, permanent relationship.
5) building cathedrals where some control access to worship.
6) using relics and icons which those in control of the building use to attract and control newbies.
7) instituting services and practices and confessions, and confirmations, and a whole lot of rituals which the first-in-the-faith use to control those later-in-the-faith.

I could go on. One has turned a simple and innocent instruction of "go ye therefore into all the world and make disciples" into a whole oppressive, all controlling institution, dominated by a hierarchy which orders your life from accepting Christ to death.

Essentially one is dangling salvation in front of someone and using that carrot to manipulate and control them forever, as if you control access to salvation.

Some folks may like that setup.

I was in that setup.

I thank God for delivering me from that setup to a point where I now work out MY OWN salvation with fear and trembling.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
So, basically, you just reject any proof, don't even read it, just continue with your manmade beliefs. And that Timothy quote has no bearing on the subject at all. Puzzling.

If your "proof" contradicts scripture, we will have to reject your "proof".
Shall I believe God or your church fathers? (Speaking of manmade beliefs?)
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Elohim hates religion...I don't vouch for this guy or any other statements he might have made, but this particular essay is truth and amen.

''Religion is often characterized by absolutism, authoritarianism and activism
which do not derive from God Himself''.

so why did Jesus build His church on a rock?
 

Truster

New member
so why did Jesus build His church on a rock?

The term used was not ''church'' church represents religion, because it was devised by religion, for religious purposes.

Messiah said, ''upon this rock I will build my ecclesia'' and the word ecclesia is not represented in any other language by any other word.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
The term used was not ''church'' church represents religion, because it was devised by religion, for religious purposes.

Messiah said, ''upon this rock I will build my ecclesia'' and the word ecclesia is not represented in any other language by any other word.

so we can't trust the words in the bible?
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
We can't trust translations and we can't trust men who haven't taken the time to discover what the original hearers understood by what they heard. In your case the proverbial cap fits.

what translation do you use?
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
What visible vestige of the Lord's Bride do you attend and covenant your membership with to receive instruction, worship God, receive the sacraments, and be subject to discipline?

Odd that our Lord thought it not robbery to become subservient, actively and passively obedient, to the will of the Father. Do you even understand the economy of the Trinity?

Is there no ordering in your own household or does headship mean nothing to you? Or are you just one of the many liberal egalitarians contributing to the dissolution of God's ordering of the family?

Beam. Eye. Remove it. :AMR:

AMR
What if the wife wants equal authority in the household?
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
I see. You are not a formal member, just someone attending, so you do not place yourself under authority. You are also wise and discerning to point out how greatly you learn from their mistakes. Finally, you are casual enough to hold your brothers and sisters up to ridicule and murmuring, declaring you do not want to shame them, as if you think your actions are not seen by He who willingly died for that very church you mock.

You are an odious sort and one who should never speak again about matters of the faith until you fall to your knees and seek forgiveness for your vilification of others and the local church militant.

AMR
What is the difference between receiving authority from a denomination and RCC. If one doesn't agree with the answers from an authority, is he allowed to jump to another denomination? Where does one settle and obey anyway?
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
What is the difference between receiving authority from a denomination and RCC. If one doesn't agree with the answers from an authority, is he allowed to jump to another denomination? Where does one settle and obey anyway?

good questions

since he does not recognize the authority of rome

is he not making himself the authority?
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
What are you, Catholic?
PCA has the same sort of government as most traditional churches have. Even though Calvin and Luther made others understand the bible lightyears, packed with wise wisdom, better doesn't mean they chunk everything the Catholics do cause its still in the bible how Christians govern themselves. But America is returning back to wild wild west, everyone care for themselves. Not a bad idea for everyone to carry guns.
Are you in a wild wild denomination where everyone has their own opinions?
 
Top