Church government is not hierarchical

I

iamaberean

New member
chrysostom said:
Jesus asked peter to feed His sheep
three times
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Jesus entrusted Peter to preach the Word as Jesus had taught. He did that in his very first sermon, on the day of Pentecost, to Jews. What did he say?
He preached Jesus and Him crucified. When they asked him what they should do, he said.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
 
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iouae

iouae

Well-known member
PureX said:
The temptation of man to presume God's 'authority' unto himself, and then use it to control and manipulate and lord themselves over other men is overwhelming. There is no Christian religious organization that I know of that does not engage in this practice to a significant degree.

And in fact, most human beings like it this way. We are social creatures and we like having social 'pecking orders'. It's what we're used to. It's the way we generally interact with each other.

I do believe that Jesus was trying to call us to transcend all this authoritarianism, but it was simply too much egalitarianism for his followers to grasp. And it appears that it still is.
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What you say is true.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

When Christians realise they are not slaves to a supposed church hierarchy - only then are they truly free.

One way that churches exercise authority over believers is with sacraments. I came to realise there are no such things as sacraments.

Let us take the eucharist as an example. This came from the Passover. At Passover, families would get together and eat a meal. Then Christ added/changed the symbols to bread and wine. But there is no mention that communion has to be done at church or has to be administered by anyone except the believer himself.

The Church likes to think that only they can administer the bread and wine. I don't buy this for one second. I know this idea will blow some minds. But so does releasing a slave from slavery do that to the mind.
 
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PureX

PureX

Well-known member
iamaberean said:
You are so right. People like authority, someone they can believe without putting out any effort on their own. That really goes against the bible, for it says:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That means, to me, we should study God's word for ourselves.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The key words in the above scripture is: 'rightly dividing the word of truth.' Because we are all Christians we should not condemn any of them for lack of knowledge. But in order for one to grow spiritually one really must study.
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But you are presuming authority upon 'scripture', then, instead of upon 'church leaders'. But it was men that wrote those scriptures. And it is a man (you) who is conferring divine authority upon what they wrote.

So really, you are still caught in the trap of conferring God's authority upon men, and then obeying the religious dictates of those men as if they were God. You're just using written text as a go-between to pretend that you aren't doing that.

If you really want to be free of this kind of man-made religious authoritarianism you have to allow the Spirit of God that exists within you as you are a creation and representation of God, to guide you, instead of ANY man-made religious 'authorities'. This is what I believe Jesus taught, but what the religious Jews of his day, and what religious Christians subsequently have never really been able to accept. They have maintained their religion as if it were their God, because by doing so, they believe they acquire God's favor, God's righteousness, and God's authority. And they like believing this. So they have never been able to let go of their false idol of religion.

And most Christians still won't let go of it, today.
 
Zeke

Zeke

Well-known member
iouae said:
I let these words from your own previous post speak to you.



The people I attend with have good attitudes, are friendly and show a Christian spirit quite unlike the one displayed in your hate-filled post above.
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He is just following ORDERS, poor excuse for a liberated Son remaining in the servants domicile under mans governing powers, Taxes, Patronizing War, voluntary Servitude etc............Oh that pesky Romans 13 yoked around that neck made of straw that voids their unalienable rights from the Creator of their Soul.
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
iouae said:
What you say is true.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

When Christians realise they are not slaves to a supposed church hierarchy - only then are they truly free.

One way that churches exercise authority over believers is with sacraments. I came to realise there are no such things as sacraments.

Let us take the eucharist as an example. This came from the Passover. At Passover, families would get together and eat a meal. Then Christ added/changed the symbols to bread and wine. But there is no mention that communion has to be done at church or has to be administered by anyone except the believer himself.

The Church likes to think that only they can administer the bread and wine. I don't buy this for one second. I know this idea will blow some minds. But so does releasing a slave from slavery do that to the mind.
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It's imperative to their illusion of divine authority that they convince people that they have these 'special powers'.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
PureX said:
It's imperative to their illusion of divine authority that they convince people that they have these 'special powers'.
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Hey their "illusion of divine authority" worked on me for decades.

I am a cult survivor :)

(And no, I don't want to name the cult)
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
iouae said:
Hey their "illusion of divine authority" worked on me for decades.

I am a cult survivor :)

(And no, I don't want to name the cult)
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It's interesting to ask, if I may, why do you think it took so long for you to question them? Why do so many people simply follow along, without any reasonable doubt?

I assume that these folks must be getting something they want from it. But I am not of that stripe, and so I have a hard time understanding it.
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
chrysostom said:
follow him to rome
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I trusted the Lord believing the gospel (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) Paul preached to the Romans that would establish them (Romans 1:11-15 KJV, Romans 16:25-26 KJV) and is the power of God to save every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV)! Have you or are you still following the deceitful worker Peter wannabes around?
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
PureX said:
It's interesting to ask, if I may, why do you think it took so long for you to question them? Why do so many people simply follow along, without any reasonable doubt?

I assume that these folks must be getting something they want from it. But I am not of that stripe, and so I have a hard time understanding it.
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They dangle some truth in front of you.
You get lured in, wanting more.
So they feed you more.
They teach how all other churches are in error.
And in turn, you support them.
Next thing you know you believe you are the only right group.
And your leader is the only inspired one.
And your hierarchy is to be obeyed.
And it's a whole culture a few days a week of doing church things together.
And group camps.
Where every scripture in the Bible is explained their way.
And one is encouraged to forsake friends and family.
And this world's education is evil too.
And one cannot read other church literature.
And fiction is bad.
And everything in the world has pagan origins which you now wisely have escaped.
Soon your whole world is the church.
So are all your resources the church's.

It sounds so dumb now writing this.
I would still be stuck in the cult if God had not through circumstances forced me out. I did not question them. It all sounded so logical at the time.
 
brewmama

brewmama

New member
iouae said:
It is a characteristic of cults, that they usually adopt a hierarchical form of church government.

I believe Christ taught exactly the opposite - that the leader must be the servant. I do not believe any Christian can domineer another's faith walk.

I never see Peter or Paul ever ordering anyone to do anything on the basis of their supposed "authority".

Look at the democratic manner in which the biggest crisis (circumcision) was resolved in Acts 15...

"6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.... ALL TALK

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said...
...INCLUDING PETER...

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul,...
....THEN BARNABUS AND PAUL TALK....

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:....
...THEN JAMES TALKS (BTW this James being the half-brother of Jesus, son of Mary) AND JAMES SEEMS TO SETTLE THE MATTER...

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas;....
...THEN THE WHOLE CHURCH REACHES A CONSENSUS WHICH PLEASES ALL....

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia....
THEN THEY WRITE LETTERS IN THE NAME OF ALL THE BELIEVERS, NOT A POPE...

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. 32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them....
...JUDAS AND SILAS DON'T ORDER ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING, RATHER THEY CONFIRM THEM, OR ESTABLISH AND STRENGTHEN THEM IN RIGHT DOING.

Even in this earliest crisis in the Christian Church we do not see one Christian ever ordering another Christian around or domineering the other's faith walk.
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You have no idea that your quotes prove hierarchy. You show leaders of the Church making the rules. Are they just letting the new converts make up their own rules? NO, absolutely not. The Apostles were bishops and leaders of the Church, the HIERARCHY.

I must add, that we go by the words of St. Vincent of Lerins (435), "that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all" as truth. This protects the church from heretical bishops. But otherwise
they are the spiritual leaders.

You don't even know what confirmation is.

And James was Joseph's son, from an earlier marriage, not Mary's.
 
brewmama

brewmama

New member
heir said:
I trusted the Lord believing the gospel (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) Paul preached to the Romans that would establish them (Romans 1:11-15 KJV, Romans 16:25-26 KJV) and is the power of God to save every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV)! Have you or are you still following the deceitful worker Peter wannabes around?
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Are you seriously calling St. Peter a deceitful worker? Surely I misunderstood you.
 
brewmama

brewmama

New member
heir said:
That's a Catholic lie.


Romans 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
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You don't believe Paul went to Rome, even though his epistles and Acts spell it out? That he requested it, as a Roman citizen?
 
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