ECT Cheap or Costly Grace?
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nikolai_42
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Oh...but it is!
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nikolai_42
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If you can't forgive, you can't "be".
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Matthew 18:21-22
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Matthew 18:35
Just like the BEatitudes from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount - in which Jesus showed that any luster was an adulterer in God's eyes and any unjustified hater was a murderer in God's eyes - so does He show this impossible requirement of unlimited forgiveness conditional only upon someone asking for it. And if you don't? God won't forgive you.
A "cheap gracer" won't forgive from the heart. He will eventually find a reason to not forgive (with great justification, of course!). But someone who knows the real grace of God will always forgive. Always. They can't help it. They know full well what it cost Christ to bring them salvation AND what their end was to be without that gift.
Cheap grace may be okay for a while, but God will force the issue at some point. Forgiveness is a good touchstone of that.
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I edited my "being" remark. But, you still are not understanding.
nikolai_42
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What am I not addressing?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Agreed.
God the Holy Spirit does not abide within regenerated souls, without eventually manifesting His presence.
It is the Spirit of God that moves one to love God and his brethren. It is the Spirit of God that enables one to forgive others. It is the Spirit of God that guides one into all Truth and enables one to witness to that Truth. The list is long of the Sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, who even intercedes in one's personal prayers and petitions made to Christ.
I do not think there is any such thing as a believer born from above, who does not exhibit His Spirit of holiness in their lives; nor lives contrary to God's will and commands. Genuine Christians want to be holy as He is holy.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
If you are asking (like you asked another poster) if I see myself as "signed, sealed and delivered" once in Christ, my answer is much the same. Yes. The thing that keeps a true believer in Christ on the narrow path is not His holding the free grace over one's head saying "I did this for you, now you better do something for me!" but there is in everyone an innate sense of justice whereby the believer - once in Christ - will gladly give all he has to follow the Savior. I see "cheap grace" (I also don't care for the term) as evidenced in the one who does calculate that they can do what they want now they are saved. I would venture to say that in most cases such a one is really not in Christ but deceiving himself.
But from an objective standpoint, the answer would be that one certainly can be said to be sealed if truly in Christ. His salvation really is that certain. But it is also radically life changing. So if someone's life doesn't change, how can you say they are really saved?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Agreed
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Amen!
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 13:35
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
I John 3:14-15
Just because the believer always forgives doesn't mean it's always easy, we still wrestle with the flesh on a daily basis - but the presence of the Spirit of God won't allow sin to go unchecked for long.
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God the Holy Spirit doesn't abide WITHIN unregenerate souls at all.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
No kidding . . . :dizzy: :chuckle:
Yes He does.
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I'm not. Only replying to your understanding in your post.
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So you all are declaring your future sins are forgiven?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not what I'm saying. Rather, I'm saying that we have confidence - if in Christ - that if we seek repentance and forgiveness, we have it.
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 16:23
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:9-15
(Interesting that Christ used forgiveness as the basis for teaching the disciples to pray that way....)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I John 1:9
It's all about the being convinced of it. The knowing beyond merely accepting an argument. The playing out of the trusting the Savior and the role of the Holy Spirit in men (which is partly the conviction of sin).
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 11:41
That is to be our conviction as well. That we have what we ask for.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
I John 5:12-17
I think that passage answers your question in a rather direct manner.
Is it not true that we have been saved, are being saved and will be saved? Why then can't forgiveness be seen the same way?
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I believe, since Jesus was addressing His disciples, that you see it as a requirement for yourself as well. That's good.
Past, present and future.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
You mean asking for forgiveness? I think so. You have not because you ask not. Jesus said that someone had to ask for forgiveness before you were required to give it.
With that said, if you compare the relationship between Christ and the church to that between a husband and wife, there are times and circumstances in which nothing need be actually said for something to be understood and clear to both. In other words, there is non-verbal communication. So does confession of sin (I mean to God) need to be verbal? I think it goes deeper than that so I will never make it an absolute requirement. Our communion with the Father is not necessarily confined to verbalization. He knows our thoughts already - so it may be that a desire expressed (to Him) may take a form known only to you and He. But that's probably splitting hairs more than necessary. Generally speaking asking for forgiveness is necessary to receive it.
Is that what you mean by "requirement"?