Can Self-Identification Be Incorrect?

[ok doser]

The problem is that "transgenders" exist.

people with all sorts of mental disorders exist


that doesn't mean that every nut who thinks he's napoleon should expect society to accommodate him

 

[quip]

factual identity, not identity based on whim **

** as if there's actually a significant difference.

 

[rexlunae]

Yes, that's what I'm asking about.

What is the distinction between them?

Sex refers to the physical characteristics that determine which role an individual can fill in sexual reproduction.

Gender refers to the cultural conventions that aren't essential to sex but are generally assumed to be associated with one or the other.

 

[Crucible]

Sex refers to the physical characteristics that determine which role an individual can fill in sexual reproduction.

Gender refers to the cultural conventions that aren't essential to sex but are generally assumed to be associated with one or the other.

Cool story

Gender is not a social construct. Gender is demonstrably associated with sex- you can't go calling it all fiction due to an extremely small population of people who are allegedly 'gender confused'.

 

[rexlunae]

Cool story

Gender is not a social construct. Gender is demonstrably associated with sex- you can't go calling it all fiction due to an extremely small population of people who are allegedly 'gender confused'.

I didn't say it was a fiction. And I didn't say it wasn't associated with sex. The two ideas are clearly related, or there would probably be no such thing as transgender. I said that it (gender) isn't about having or not having particular body parts.

 

[kmoney]

Look at this:

{video}

Should one's gender identity be recognized and (legally) accepted by others, if it contradicts reality? If so, is gender the only trait that someone can deny or change at will?

What about height?
Weight?
Race?
Age?
Species?

Is it possible for someone to incorrectly identify themselves?

I think race is the only one that is comparable to gender. Race can carry with it stereotypes and identities that go beyond anything measurable. I don't think weight, height, age, and species are like that. I read something that said the recent federal government's guidance to schools about how to handle transgender students excludes activities like sports where there could be safety or competitive reasons to separate the two and deny a transgender student access. So where something measurable does come into play the gov't is still allowing schools to draw those lines.

With race, just remember Rachel Dolezal. She identifies as an African American even though there is nothing in her ancestry to match that. Should we accept that? Is that different from a man identifying as a woman?

I think an important question is if what constitutes traditional gender roles is based in biology at all.

Does anyone have the right or duty to correct an incorrect self-identity, or should we all just politely play along?

In what context?

 

[kmoney]

The problem is that "transgenders" exist. this is the rub. People are now discovering that they actually exist … and are out in pubic! And they don't like it, because these people are different. They are "queer". And some people really don't like anything that's different, or "queer". They fear it, and they loathe it. And they want it to go away.

So they want these people banished from the public eye, and from public consciousness.

And then some pandering politician realized this, and realized he could make some political hay pandering to it. And "wallah!"; the phony news media has another "issue" to peddle, for profit.

Has anyone here ever, in their whole life, actually seen someone of the opposite sex enter and use the restroom they were using? Ever? Odds are that not one person here has ever seen this happen. And very likely we never will. That's how insignificant this issue really is. … Except to pandering politicians and phony news outlets, of course.

I'm not sure that answered my question. The situation in NC began with a law that accommodated transgender people using whatever fits their identity. What problem do you think they were solving? Or are you saying they were trying to fix the problem of people knowing about transgender people and that they are in public!! and don't like it?

 

[patrick jane]

I just don't see trannies anywhere when I go out. As far as I'm concerned they really don't exist, iow, it's a non-issue

 

[rexlunae]

I just don't see trannies anywhere when I go out.

That you notice.

As far as I'm concerned they really don't exist, iow, it's a non-issue

Save one life, save the world?

 

[glassjester]

I just don't see trannies anywhere when I go out. As far as I'm concerned they really don't exist, iow, it's a non-issue

I think that's their goal, isn't it?
To pass as the opposite gender without anyone noticing.

There seems to be, in the very idea of transgenderism, an inherent desire to deceive.




Also, maybe it's just not common where you live. I've seen them.

 

[annabenedetti]

I think that's their goal, isn't it?
To pass as the opposite gender without anyone noticing.

There seems to be, in the very idea of transgenderism, an inherent desire to deceive.

How do you know it's their goal to deceive?

 

[Crucible]

How do you know it's their goal to deceive?

They want people to see them as something they are not- *deception*

 

[PureX]

So when physical evidence contradicts someone's beliefs, which data should the rest of society act in accordance with? The physical fact, or the incorrect belief?

Or does the answer change, depending on the subject of the belief?

It depends on the circumstances, and especially on the result. If I believe my body can defy gravity, I will be endangered by that belief. But if I believe I am purple, I will not likely be endangered. And in a free society, we are not generally held accountable for what we believe unless it presents a danger to ourselves or others.

 

[patrick jane]

How do you know it's their goal to deceive?

I think they just want to look as much like the gender they identify with as the possibly can

 

[PureX]

I'm not sure that answered my question. The situation in NC began with a law that accommodated transgender people using whatever fits their identity. What problem do you think they were solving? Or are you saying they were trying to fix the problem of people knowing about transgender people and that they are in public!! and don't like it?

Liberal politicians pander, too.

But to put the best light on it, I assume they were addressing the danger involved in a person who is a woman in every way but for having a penis, then having to enter a men's bathroom to pee. Men, especially in places like North Carolina, tend to behave badly, and often violently, to any human behavior unfamiliar to them, or to anyone that looks remarkably different. Also, the law may have been passed to emphasize the civil rights aspect of this, as it is legally discriminatory to deny someone access to a public bathroom based on their sex OR gender. And the courts have recently determined this to be so.

 

[PureX]

Transgender people do not exist. When a man likes girl things and girl lifestyles he is a feminine man, not a woman.

Hermaphrodites with both sets of genitals exist. People with both breasts and penises, exist. Men with muscles, beards, and vaginas, exist. If you're going to insist on just denying their existence, there's no point in your even being in this discussion.

I'm ok with feminine men. I'm ok with men dressing in clothing that is traditionally for women.

I'm not ok pretending that liking or relating with those things actually makes you a woman.

Well, that sounds like YOUR problem, not theirs. And anyway, who cares what you're "ok with"? You are not the yardstick by which all other human beings must be defined and judged.

 

[shagster01]

Hermaphrodites with both sets of genitals exist. People with both breasts and penises, exist. Men with muscles, beards, and vaginas, exist. If you're going to insist on just denying their existence, there's no point in your even being in this discussion.

Yes, but again it comes to biology. These are the rare cases.

Well, that sounds like YOUR problem, not theirs. And anyway, who cares what you're "ok with"? You are not the yardstick by which all other human beings must be defined and judged.

No. Apparently they get to be the yardstick, making up what a yard is as they go.

 

[patrick jane]

Hermaphrodites with both sets of genitals exist. People with both breasts and penises, exist. Men with muscles, beards, and vaginas, exist. If you're going to insist on just denying their existence, there's no point in your even being in this discussion.

Well, that sounds like YOUR problem, not theirs. And anyway, who cares what you're "ok with"? You are not the yardstick by which all other human beings must be defined and judged.

You're a proponent for hermaphrodites now and the rare cases of true trans genders ? They are so rare that they need to follow our rules, not the other way around.

 

[PureX]

You're a proponent for hermaphrodites now and the rare cases of true trans genders ? They are so rare that they need to follow our rules, not the other way around.

I'm not a "proponent" for anything. I'm just saying that they exist.

I don't personally care what bathroom they choose to use.

Those little signs on the doors are only suggestions, anyway, they are not "rules".

 

[PureX]

Apparently they get to be the yardstick, making up what a yard is as they go.

Welcome back to reality, neighbor!