can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

[brother Willi]

http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=040816&cat=news&st=newsd84gd8u80&src=ap


AP: Group Discovers John the Baptist Cave

Updated 11:36 AM ET August 16, 2004


By KARIN LAUB

KIBBUTZ TZUBA, Israel (AP) - Archaeologists said Monday they have found a cave where they believe John the Baptist anointed many of his disciples _ a huge cistern with 28 steps leading to an underground pool of water.

During an exclusive tour of the cave by The Associated Press, archaeologists presented wall carvings they said tell the story of the fiery New Testament preacher, as well as a stone they believe was used for ceremonial foot washing.

They also pulled about 250,000 pottery shards from the cave, the apparent remnants of small water jugs used in baptismal ritual.

"John the Baptist, who was just a figure from the Gospels, now comes to life," said British archaeologist Shimon Gibson, who supervised the dig outside Jerusalem.

However, others said there was no proof that John the Baptist ever set foot in the cave, about 2 1/2 miles from Ein Kerem, the preacher's hometown and now part of Jerusalem.

"Unfortunately, we didn't find any inscriptions," said James Tabor, a religious studies professor at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte.



Tabor and his students have participated in the excavations.

Both Tabor and Gibson said it was very likely that the wall carvings, including one showing a man with a staff and wearing animal skin, told the story of John the Baptist. The carvings stem from the Byzantine period and apparently were made by monks in the fourth or fifth century.

Gibson said he believed the monks commemorated John at a site linked to him by local tradition.

Gibson said the carvings, the foot washing stone and other finds, taken together with the proximity of John's hometown, constituted strong circumstantial evidence that the cave was used by John.

John, a contemporary of Jesus who also preached a message of redemption, is one of the most important figures in Christianity. The discovery, if confirmed, would be among the most significant breakthroughs for biblical scholars in memory.

The cave is on the property of Kibbutz Tzuba, an Israeli communal farm just outside Jerusalem. A member of the kibbutz, Reuven Kalifon, knew of the cave's existence _ the community's nectarine orchards run right up to the mouth of the cave _ but it was filled with soil almost to the ceiling.

In 1999, Kalifon asked Gibson to inspect the cave more closely.

The archaeologist, who has excavated in the Holy Land for three decades, crawled through the small opening and began removing boulders near the wall of the cave. When he pushed aside one of the stones, he saw a head carved into the wall _ the top of the figure he believes depicts John.

Gibson, who heads the Jerusalem Archaeological Field Unit, a private research group, organized an excavation. During the five-year project, he wrote a book, entitled "The Cave of John the Baptist," to be published later this week.

Gibson said the cave _ 24 yards long, around four yards wide and four yards deep _ was carved in the Iron Age, somewhere between 800 and 500 B.C., by the Israelites who apparently used it as an immersion pool.

"It apparently was adopted by John the Baptist, who wanted a place where he could bring people to undergo their rituals, pertaining to his ideas of baptism," Gibson said.

Believers would have walked down 28 stone steps. To their right, they would have discarded their clothes in a niche carved into the wall.

At the bottom of the steps, they would have placed the right foot onto a stone with an imprint of a foot. A small depression to the right of the imprint would have contained oil, to be poured over the foot for cleansing, Gibson said.

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Both you and Aimiel have no business on a board where serious discussions of theology take place. You are not only both intellectually dishonest and incapable of reading but are also a straight up liar.

Where, specifically, do you believe I have been 'intellectually dishonest,' or told a 'straight up lie?' Personally, I've never had anything against you, until you attacked me, for no good reason, and then failed to respond to my post, which clearly showed the reasoning (scripturally and spiritually sound) behind my earlier post(s). You have not only failed in regard to the discussion, but now, because of your poor attitude (bitter and condescending) you've effectively hijacked this thread, for the purposes of vaunting your own ego. That isn't discussing theology seriously, it's suppression and repression, and is not in the least bit productive, Christian or honest.

 

[c.moore]

Maybe you might take some time and research if what he teaches and if his new book about this is true.


Jesus was a reality attested to by historians.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
Josephus,"Antiquities Of The Jews," Book #18, Chapter 2, section 3
(“The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations."
– (Catholic Encyclopedia))
Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.
The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."
Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.
It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.
How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?
The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!

If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.
It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.
In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Constantine


Bishop Eusebius, self-confessed liar-for-god, was the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus, about the year 340 AD.
Whole libraries of antiquity where torched by the Christians. Yet unlike the works of his Jewish contemporaries, the histories of Josephus survived. They survived because the Christian censors had a use for them. They planted evidence on Josephus, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus Christ ! Finding no references to Jesus anywhere in Josephus's genuine work, they interpolated a brief but all-embracing reference based purely on Christian belief.
Because the Testimonium is so readily exposed as a forgery, Christian apologists turn increasingly to a much briefer reference in Book 20:
"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was put upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, (or some of his companions). And when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned."
Josephus (The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 20, Chapter 9)

Yet Josephus's second reference falls both because it is dependent upon the earlier (false) reference for explanation – and because it actually refers to "Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest" !

"The following description of Jesus Christ was written by Publius Lentrelus, a resident of Judea in the reign of Tiberius Caesar. It first appeared in the writings of Saint Anselm of Canterbury, 11th century:
(The 11th century is too late. Not credible).
There lives at this time in Judea a man of singular virtue whose name is Jesus Christ, whom the barbarians esteem as a prophet, but his followers love and adore him as the offspring of the immortal God.
He calls back the dead from the graves and heals all sorts of diseases with a word or touch. He is a tall man, well-shaped, and of an amiable and reverend aspect; his hair of a color that can hardly be matched, falling into graceful curls, waving about and very agreeable crouching upon his shoulders, parted on the crown of the head, running as a stream to the front after fashion of the Nazarites. His forehead high, large and imposing; hs cheeks without spot or wrinkle, beautiful with a lovely red; his nose and mouth formed with exquisite symmetry; his beard, and of a color suitable to his hair, reaching below his chin and parted in the middle like a fork; his eyes bright blue, clear and serene. Look innocent, dignified, manly and mature. In proportion of body most perfect, and captivating; his arms and hands delectable to behold.
He rebukes with majesty, councils with mildness, His whole address whether in word or deed, being eloquent and grave. No man has seen him laugh, yet his manners are exceedingly pleasant, but he has wept frequently in the presence of men. He is temporate, modest and wise. A man for his extraordinary beauty and perfection, surpassing the children of men in every sense."
E. Raymond Capt's book, "The Resurrection Tomb"
TO TIBERIUS CAESAR:
A young man appeared in Galilee preaching with humble unction, a new law in the Name of the God that had sent Him. At first I was apprehensive that His design was to stir up the people against the Romans, but my fears were soon dispelled. Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a friend of the Romans than of the Jews. One day I observed in the midst of a group of people a young man who was leaning against a tree, calmly addressing the multitude. I was told it was Jesus. This I could easily have suspected so great was the difference between Him and those who were listening to Him. His golden colored hair and beard gave to his appearance a celestial aspect. He appeared to be about 30 years of age. Never have I seen a sweeter or more serene countenance. What a contrast between Him and His bearers with their black beards and tawny complexions! Unwilling to interrupt Him by my presence, I continued my walk but signified to my secretary to join the group and listen. Later, my secretary reported that never had he seen in the works of all the philosophers anything that compared to the teachings of Jesus. He told me that Jesus was neither seditious nor rebellious, so we extended to Him our protection. He was at liberty to act, to speak, to assemble and to address the people. This unlimited freedom provoked the Jews -- not the poor but the rich and powerful.
Later, I wrote to Jesus requesting an interview with Him at the Praetorium. He came. When the Nazarene made His appearance I was having my morning walk and as I faced Him my feet seemed fastened with an iron hand to the marble pavement and I trembled in every limb as a guilty culprit, though he was calm. For some time I stood admiring this extraordinary Man. There was nothing in Him that was repelling, nor in His character, yet I felt awed in His presence. I told Him that there was a magnetic simplicity about Him and His personality that elevated Him far above the philosophers and teachers of His day.
Now, Noble Sovereign, these are the facts concerning Jesus of Nazareth and I have taken the time to write you in detail concerning these matters. I say that such a man who could convert water into wine, change death into life, disease into health; calm the stormy seas, is not guilty of any criminal offense and as others have said, we must agree -- truly this is the Son of God.
Your most obedient servant,
Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar "
E. Raymond Capt's book, "The Resurrection Tomb"- Copies are in the Congressional Library in Washington, D.C
(Where was this information found? When was it written? It was not written before the fourth century).
"I asked him to describe this person to me, so that I might know him if I should meet him. He said: 'If you ever meet him you will know him. While he is nothing but a man, there is something about him that distinguishes him from every other man. He is the picture of his mother, only he has not her smooth, round face. His hair is a little more golden than hers, though it is as much from sunburn as anything else. He is tall, and his shoulders are a little drooped; his visage is thin and of a swarthy complexion, though this is from exposure. His eyes are large and a soft blue, and rather dull and heavy....' This Jew is convinced that he is the Messiah of the world. ...this was the same person that was born of the virgin in Bethlehem some twenty-six years before..."
The Archko Volume, Gamaliel's Interview, translated by Drs. McIntosh and Twyman of the Antiquarian Lodge, Genoa, Italy, from manuscripts in Constantinople and the records of the Senatorial Docket taken from the Vatican of Rome (1896) 92-93
(Again, this is written too late: after the fourth century).
In Christ
Mary
Only when the Magisterium is accepted docilely in a spirit of faith ... can you avoid the temptations caused by the superficial fascination of theological trends which disfigure and obscure the truth" Pope John Paul II

(“What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!� Pope Leo X).

 

[Chileice]

Hey c.moore,
I wouldn't get too bent out of shape. There have been and are conspiracy theorists from day 1. Matthew even points out that early people tried to start a conspiracy saying Jesus' body was robbed. Why on earth would he even plant that "doubt" if it wasn't true?

The other thing to remember is people question everything, I mean everything. There are all kinds of people who doubt the haulocaust, who doubt men went to the moon, people who thimk Elvis is alive (really!) people who doubt ANYTHING, even things they have seen with their own eyes.

The mythology teacher doesn't have to deal with his own sins or his own conscious as long as Jesus id "just another myth" but if he admits his reality, he will be stuck having to make a decision. So he has conviently developed a complex armour to ward off any evidence to the contrary so that he doesn't have to deal with Jesus. People build scenarios to protect themselves from grief, from loss, from responsibility. He is just another in a long line of such people. He is also punch-drunk with his supposed intelectual superiority. But that is also a crock. Reality has a way of breaking those guys down eventually.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Where, specifically, do you believe I have been 'intellectually dishonest,' or told a 'straight up lie?' Personally, I've never had anything against you, until you attacked me, for no good reason, and then failed to respond to my post, which clearly showed the reasoning (Scripturally and spiritually sound) behind my earlier post(s). You have not only failed in regard to the discussion, but now, because of your poor attitude (bitter and condescending) you've effectively hijacked this thread, for the purposes of vaunting your own ego. That isn't discussing theology seriously, it's suppression and repression, and is not in the least bit productive, Christian or honest.

Actually, Aimiel it seems I owe you an apology!

I must be losing my mind! I was sure you were the one who had told me a long while back that your test of truth was the Spirit's testimony within your own heart, and that you commonly get revelations from God that may or may not be directly Biblical, etc. However, not only am I not able to find any such post, but your posts here seem to contradict such a belief and I admittedly have not followed your posts lately. So I must have you mixed up with some other knucklehead around here! I hope you will accept my sincere apologies.
I still don't get why you would agree with Rolf though, since he is the one who attacked me personally after having been asked a simple and fair question and then after I responded to his attack he accused me of posting ad hominem attacks! A little hypocritical don't you think?
All I ever wanted to know is whether he believed what it sounded like he was saying or if he had miss stated it! A question I still have no real answer for! I can of course guess based on his extremely emotional over reaction but I'd prefer a direct answer to my question wouldn't you? Or do you also believe that there are those whom God does not wish to reveal Himself too?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Actually, Aimiel it seems I owe you an apology!

Accepted!!!

I was sure you were the one who had told me a long while back that your test of truth was the Spirit's testimony within your own heart, and that you commonly get revelations from God that may or may not be directly Biblical, etc.

Nope, that is not my own 'knuckleheaded' way of thinking. I believe that we're to study, to show ourselves approved, not only of men (which we seem to major in) but of The Lord, and especially of The Holy Spirit.

However, not only am I not able to find any such post, but your posts here seem to contradict such a belief and I admittedly have not followed your posts lately. So I must have you mixed up with some other knucklehead around here! I hope you will accept my sincere apologies.

I forgave you before you asked, but it is also nice to receive an apology, so: thank you.

I still don't get why you would agree with Rolf though, since he is the one who attacked me personally after having been asked a simple and fair question and then after I responded to his attack he accused me of posting ad hominem attacks!

I'm always ready to agree with true statements, and those who use The Word of God to do things against sound doctrine or who hold The Truth in un-righteousness are not always easily discernable.

All I ever wanted to know is whether he believed what it sounded like he was saying or if he had miss stated it!

I'll admit here that I haven't been following all of your correspondence with him.

A question I still have no real answer for! I can of course guess based on his extremely emotional over reaction but I'd prefer a direct answer to my question wouldn't you?

I always try to set any emotions aside, and be as direct as possible, and believe that we'd be more amiable with one another if more of us did the same. I try to remember that I'm an ambassador for The Lord, and not my own 'agenda' or politics.

Or do you also believe that there are those whom God does not wish to reveal Himself to?

I believe that He has chosen the foolish things of this world to not only prevent them from 'seeing' Him, but to confound the efforts of those who think themselves 'wise,' who have become fools.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Chileice

Hey c.moore,
I wouldn't get too bent out of shape. There have been and are conspiracy theorists from day 1. Matthew even points out that early people tried to start a conspiracy saying Jesus' body was robbed. Why on earth would he even plant that "doubt" if it wasn't true?

The other thing to remember is people question everything, I mean everything. There are all kinds of people who doubt the haulocaust, who doubt men went to the moon, people who thimk Elvis is alive (really!) people who doubt ANYTHING, even things they have seen with their own eyes.

The mythology teacher doesn't have to deal with his own sins or his own conscious as long as Jesus id "just another myth" but if he admits his reality, he will be stuck having to make a decision. So he has conviently developed a complex armour to ward off any evidence to the contrary so that he doesn't have to deal with Jesus. People build scenarios to protect themselves from grief, from loss, from responsibility. He is just another in a long line of such people. He is also punch-drunk with his supposed intelectual superiority. But that is also a crock. Reality has a way of breaking those guys down eventually.

maybe he has more proven points and knowledge as most christians and pastors.

i think the evidence showing the myth of the bible can stand as fairy tales because we have no leg to back up any proof.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Originally posted by firechyld

If one is a lie, or borrowed, wouldn't it be more likely to be the younger version?

With a theology such as the one I hold, a belief that truth has been restored countless times through revelation from God to a prophet or prophets, the chronological order is not demanding.

The reason for restoration is due to previous apostasy. Since apostasy entails corrupting true beliefs and records and would naturaly predate any restoration the chronology is not too relevant.

The pattern is one of having the truth, lossing it through apostasy/alterations, and having it restored. The existance of connections throughout history is something forseen by such a concept of what has happened throughout the course of history.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by firechyld

And what of the accepted scholarly position that the Mesopotamian myth predates the Hebrew one?

If you accept ,for the sake of argument, that the biblical account is 100% correct it would be true that the Mesopotamian's and the Chinese and all of the people on earth are children of Noah. The Mesopotamian writings would in fact be older because the Hebrew culture started with Abraham.

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Mustard Seed

With a theology such as the one I hold, a belief that truth has been restored countless times through revelation from God to a prophet or prophets, the chronological order is not demanding.

Why, if these 'revelations' are really from God, do they keep having to be re-written, and then older versions of them have to be denied or 'excused away?'

 

[Mustard Seed]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Why, if these 'revelations' are really from God, do they keep having to be re-written, and then older versions of them have to be denied or 'excused away?'

They don't. To every season. Perhaps you can answer what I haven't seen anyone else answer adequatly. Why did God command Abraham to deceive?

 

[billwald]

To answer the origional question, no. No one but the Holy Spirit can give proof that Jesus Christ is the Messiah

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Mustard Seed

They don't. To every season. Perhaps you can answer what I haven't seen anyone else answer adequatly. Why did God command Abraham to deceive?

Uh... who exactly did God command Abraham to deceive?

 

[firechyld]

If you accept ,for the sake of argument, that the biblical account is 100% correct it would be true that the Mesopotamian's and the Chinese and all of the people on earth are children of Noah. The Mesopotamian writings would in fact be older because the Hebrew culture started with Abraham.

Nicely done.

 

[c.moore]

the oneness but the church and religion do not teach the original back ground of our belief at all , and the proof of them historically, even the fondation of where we get the Idea of belief,historical facts about the bible and how it was formed, also what was before the hebrews and Jews, is never mention.
the world is billions of years old
, and what is being taught what has happen in between these times is not mention, even what was tzhe people like who lived in these years before 15.000 BC ?
What did they have for story`s in their time?
Did they worship and what?
How did these pre ancient people look at their gods, and how did they come into the trinity God.

Was the story of Adam and EVE ever told before the bible existed and did the character existed before the bible??

I have looked at Islam and trace also how the Koran was copied , and even traced back to a moon god, and many story of the koran was thought of from pre arabs, and pagan religions.

So can this be also the same by our bible, and religion??

Why not put our bible and belief under a microscope and see if every thing was copied , and not just came down from heaven at one time.

What proof do we have , and can we find these evidence???

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by c.moore

the oneness but the church and religion do not teach the original back ground of our belief at all , and the proof of them historically, even the fondation of where we get the Idea of belief,historical facts about the bible and how it was formed, also what was before the hebrews and Jews, is never mention.
the world is billions of years old
, and what is being taught what has happen in between these times is not mention, even what was tzhe people like who lived in these years before 15.000 BC ?
What did they have for story`s in their time?
Did they worship and what?
How did these pre ancient people look at their gods, and how did they come into the trinity God.

Was the story of Adam and EVE ever told before the bible existed and did the character existed before the bible??

I have looked at Islam and trace also how the Koran was copied , and even traced back to a moon god, and many story of the koran was thought of from pre arabs, and pagan religions.

So can this be also the same by our bible, and religion??

Why not put our bible and belief under a microscope and see if every thing was copied , and not just came down from heaven at one time.

What proof do we have , and can we find these evidence???

c. moore,

I truly do not understand why you are burying you head in the sand like this!

Every one of these issues are dealt with directly in the resources I have mentioned, everything from the age of the earth to what ancient people's believed and why. These are all valid questions which you are by no means the first to ask and which have been dealt with quite nicely.

I give up. As I said before, I've given you the tools; it’s up to you to do your own homework.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[c.moore]

Clete Pfeiffer

the Lady was BTW buried in the same cementary as my parent in cambridge where I am born.wwooow

 

[c.moore]

My teacher has comitted on thi:

Jesus was a reality attested to by historians.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
Josephus,"Antiquities Of The Jews," Book #18, Chapter 2, section 3
(“The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations."
– (Catholic Encyclopedia))
Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.
The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."
Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.
It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.
How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?
The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!

If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.
It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.
In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Constantine


Bishop Eusebius, self-confessed liar-for-god, was the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus, about the year 340 AD.
Whole libraries of antiquity where torched by the Christians. Yet unlike the works of his Jewish contemporaries, the histories of Josephus survived. They survived because the Christian censors had a use for them. They planted evidence on Josephus, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus Christ ! Finding no references to Jesus anywhere in Josephus's genuine work, they interpolated a brief but all-embracing reference based purely on Christian belief.
Because the Testimonium is so readily exposed as a forgery, Christian apologists turn increasingly to a much briefer reference in Book 20:
"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was put upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, (or some of his companions). And when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned."
Josephus (The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 20, Chapter 9)

Yet Josephus's second reference falls both because it is dependent upon the earlier (false) reference for explanation – and because it actually refers to "Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest" !

"The following description of Jesus Christ was written by Publius Lentrelus, a resident of Judea in the reign of Tiberius Caesar. It first appeared in the writings of Saint Anselm of Canterbury, 11th century:
(The 11th century is too late. Not credible).
There lives at this time in Judea a man of singular virtue whose name is Jesus Christ, whom the barbarians esteem as a prophet, but his followers love and adore him as the offspring of the immortal God.
He calls back the dead from the graves and heals all sorts of diseases with a word or touch. He is a tall man, well-shaped, and of an amiable and reverend aspect; his hair of a color that can hardly be matched, falling into graceful curls, waving about and very agreeable crouching upon his shoulders, parted on the crown of the head, running as a stream to the front after fashion of the Nazarites. His forehead high, large and imposing; hs cheeks without spot or wrinkle, beautiful with a lovely red; his nose and mouth formed with exquisite symmetry; his beard, and of a color suitable to his hair, reaching below his chin and parted in the middle like a fork; his eyes bright blue, clear and serene. Look innocent, dignified, manly and mature. In proportion of body most perfect, and captivating; his arms and hands delectable to behold.
He rebukes with majesty, councils with mildness, His whole address whether in word or deed, being eloquent and grave. No man has seen him laugh, yet his manners are exceedingly pleasant, but he has wept frequently in the presence of men. He is temporate, modest and wise. A man for his extraordinary beauty and perfection, surpassing the children of men in every sense."
E. Raymond Capt's book, "The Resurrection Tomb"
TO TIBERIUS CAESAR:
A young man appeared in Galilee preaching with humble unction, a new law in the Name of the God that had sent Him. At first I was apprehensive that His design was to stir up the people against the Romans, but my fears were soon dispelled. Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a friend of the Romans than of the Jews. One day I observed in the midst of a group of people a young man who was leaning against a tree, calmly addressing the multitude. I was told it was Jesus. This I could easily have suspected so great was the difference between Him and those who were listening to Him. His golden colored hair and beard gave to his appearance a celestial aspect. He appeared to be about 30 years of age. Never have I seen a sweeter or more serene countenance. What a contrast between Him and His bearers with their black beards and tawny complexions! Unwilling to interrupt Him by my presence, I continued my walk but signified to my secretary to join the group and listen. Later, my secretary reported that never had he seen in the works of all the philosophers anything that compared to the teachings of Jesus. He told me that Jesus was neither seditious nor rebellious, so we extended to Him our protection. He was at liberty to act, to speak, to assemble and to address the people. This unlimited freedom provoked the Jews -- not the poor but the rich and powerful.
Later, I wrote to Jesus requesting an interview with Him at the Praetorium. He came. When the Nazarene made His appearance I was having my morning walk and as I faced Him my feet seemed fastened with an iron hand to the marble pavement and I trembled in every limb as a guilty culprit, though he was calm. For some time I stood admiring this extraordinary Man. There was nothing in Him that was repelling, nor in His character, yet I felt awed in His presence. I told Him that there was a magnetic simplicity about Him and His personality that elevated Him far above the philosophers and teachers of His day.
Now, Noble Sovereign, these are the facts concerning Jesus of Nazareth and I have taken the time to write you in detail concerning these matters. I say that such a man who could convert water into wine, change death into life, disease into health; calm the stormy seas, is not guilty of any criminal offense and as others have said, we must agree -- truly this is the Son of God.
Your most obedient servant,
Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar "
E. Raymond Capt's book, "The Resurrection Tomb"- Copies are in the Congressional Library in Washington, D.C
(Where was this information found? When was it written? It was not written before the fourth century).
"I asked him to describe this person to me, so that I might know him if I should meet him. He said: 'If you ever meet him you will know him. While he is nothing but a man, there is something about him that distinguishes him from every other man. He is the picture of his mother, only he has not her smooth, round face. His hair is a little more golden than hers, though it is as much from sunburn as anything else. He is tall, and his shoulders are a little drooped; his visage is thin and of a swarthy complexion, though this is from exposure. His eyes are large and a soft blue, and rather dull and heavy....' This Jew is convinced that he is the Messiah of the world. ...this was the same person that was born of the virgin in Bethlehem some twenty-six years before..."
The Archko Volume, Gamaliel's Interview, translated by Drs. McIntosh and Twyman of the Antiquarian Lodge, Genoa, Italy, from manuscripts in Constantinople and the records of the Senatorial Docket taken from the Vatican of Rome (1896) 92-93
(Again, this is written too late: after the fourth century).
In Christ
Mary
Only when the Magisterium is accepted docilely in a spirit of faith ... can you avoid the temptations caused by the superficial fascination of theological trends which disfigure and obscure the truth" Pope John Paul II
(“What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!� Pope Leo X).

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Mustard Seed

They don't. To every season. Perhaps you can answer what I haven't seen anyone else answer adequatly. Why did God command Abraham to deceive?

I'm sorry you missed the point, when Jesus already explained that Abraham saw His Day, and was glad that his wife could truly be called his sister, with God as their Father, because of Jesus' sacrifice, so that he would not have to 'lie' when saying, "This is my sister." The Lord knows what a man should do to 'get ahead' in any situation, and will tell us how to go about doing just that, if we will only ask Him. Jesus said that The Holy Spirit would tell us things to come. Example: I woke up one morning, and The Holy Spirit said, "Call in 'sick' today." I thought, right away, "That's not God." He said it again. I did too. He said it a third time, and I didn't say anything, I just ignored Him. Because of a very poor manager, and an even worse attitude on my part, about 2-1/2 hours later, I quit my job. I cried on the way home, and vowed to never 'miss it' again, and not discern The Voice of The Lord. I have yet to be dissappointed, with His promptings and leadings. :thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by billwald

To answer the origional question, no. No one but the Holy Spirit can give proof that Jesus Christ is the Messiah

Bill,

You're correct. Your understanding is perfect. Most un-believers don't know this, because if they did, they'd understand The Truth. Many who profess to be Christians don't know (or acknowledge) this truth. He is The One Who revealse all truth, and will show us things to come. Thank God for The Holy Spirit.