can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

[john2001]

Re: can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

Originally posted by c.moore

I have been dealing with this mythology teacher , and interviewing him on my tv and radio programs, and he gave incredible answers and question I don`t know to deal with them and if I let them be broadcast to the unbelievers and my audience it might prove to people there never was a real Christ and bible and religion is just a copy of pagan worship, and ancient customs.

So can anyone here please give me science evidence or other evidence that Christ lived outside the use of the bible or an religious form of information??

Please it must be logical evidence where can be traced or shown from people who have nothing to do with christianity and are not on any side just facts , and proofs, where no one can not say it is made up and please no stories, Just facts outside of the bible of Christ existance.

maybe their is bones or dust , clothes, or personal writting of Christ that can proven today he lived out side the bible or religious system.

maybe from the Egysiann side we can have evidence of the miracles of Moses or maybe someone can prove a millian people have really walked through the desert, and there is bones and writting of this all happening outside of the bible because non believers and other people have wrote about these biblical story and facts themselves to be trace to the bible as true facts.
Even the proof of mary existance if there is any please give me any links on this or proofs outside of the religion , and the bible on this please, it is so important.


This teacher has said there is no proof and no religion or scholar, priest , pastor, christian teachers can prove this out side of the bible, without using christian resources.


God Bless

You are pretty much out of luck. Aside from a one-liner in Josephus there is only the questionable accounts of the New Testament.

Even then, all the claims of "eyewitnesses" are pretty weak. The Gospels seem to have been written in the order:

Mark -> Mathew ->Luke-Acts -> John

So, if you read them in that order, the story evolves. (These are novels, not historical documents.)

The oldest extant copy of Mark does not have the last paragraph explicitly saying anything about the "resurrection'. That Mark was written sometime after 70 CE comes from the fake "prophesy" of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Each subsequent Gospel is retelling and correction of the previous oen, with Luke-Acts being the big novel. The mistake that is made by many Christians is to view these as being accounts in parallel, when really these are accounts in series.

The early church fathers were pretty sneaky shuffling them up so that this correction and revision pattern would not be seen.

(Look at Jesus last words in each of the Gospels.)

So, your teacher really is on the mark. Now, I am not saying that you shouldn't continue to be a Christian, but you might want to take apart the things that you have been believing and put them in a more rational perspective. Anything that is too good to be true, probably isn't, and anything supernatural should be viewed as being mythic in nature.

As far as the pagan angle is concerned, the audience of these Greek Jews who started Christianity was mixed between traditional Judaism and Greek and Egyptian beliefs.

Now, other things, such as those in the old testament, the notion of a worldwide flood (which never happened), and what not all get more mythical as you go back to the beginning in the Bible, where it is all mythic.

 

[firechyld]

Also, you must realize that the gospel accounts found in the New Testament are HISTORICAL biographies, whether one accepts them or not.

I disagree. I'd be more inclined to say that they are war time persuasive writings, whether one accepts them or not.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by firechyld

I disagree. I'd be more inclined to say that they are war time persuasive writings, whether one accepts them or not.

So is that where we get proof of Christ existance by looking at all the religious war and the fights of the church and mass killing by the church to see that Jesus might have really existed??

 

[firechyld]

So is that where we get proof of Christ existance by looking at all the religious war and the fights of the church and mass killing by the church to see that Jesus might have really existed??

No, that's not what I meant.

What I was getting at was that there is no evidence outside of the gospels that they can be considered "historical biographies"... whereas there is hefty extra-biblical evidence that they are war time writings by members of a minority group.

Acceptance of the gospels as historical biographies, while not necessarily incorrect, is based on faith and religious dogma, as it cannot be verified. Acceptance of them as wartime writings or literature is at least verifiable... whether or not they are any more than that.

Does that make a bit more sense?

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by granite1010

Having doubt doesn't mean losing your faith, it just means taking a longer look at it.

I believe that we're supposed to meditate on The Word of God, and beyond that, only on things that are: true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report; virtuous, or praiseworthy. Beyond that, we're over-stepping our bounds. To dwell on doubt, or to contemplate negative possibilities or outcomes is to worry, which is sin. Having doubt is one thing, but doubting everything is sin. Making sin one's 'lifestyle' is not an option for Christians.

 

[openthestargate]

Think on this.If Jesus Christ is not real, then you have no hope beyond this life. You might as well enjoy what few years of life you have left before your body gives out and dies, for that is all the living you will have. There will be NOTHING afterwords. No resurrection and no heaven. Just BLACKNESS or better put, extinction of being. The thought is awesome I know, but it is true. Oh without Christ and his mercy we shall never exist again and all those we love or have loved are perished to. Oh Lord Jesus, help my unbelief and remember me in paradise. Amen

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Aimiel

I believe that we're supposed to meditate on The Word of God, and beyond that, only on things that are: true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report; virtuous, or praiseworthy. Beyond that, we're over-stepping our bounds. To dwell on doubt, or to contemplate negative possibilities or outcomes is to worry, which is sin. Having doubt is one thing, but doubting everything is sin. Making sin one's 'lifestyle' is not an option for Christians.

In other words, only dwell on things that you already agree with.

People doubt. People ask questions. Christians doubt. Christians ask questions. If your solution's just "don't worry, be happy," it doesn't strike me as a particularly good one. Asking hard questions about what you believe and why isn't something a Christian should be afraid of.

 

[c.moore]

Asking hard questions about what you believe and why isn't something a Christian should be afraid of.

Amen!

 

[Aimiel]

I don't believe that I'm afraid of anything. I also don't believe that our 'standard' lifestyle, as believers, should be doubt. I believe that when The Word of God says that we should 'believe all things,' that it means that we don't need to be full of doubt, disputation and run around being critical, just like the world. We are supposed to 'believe the best' of people, and that type of faith is the type that often produces good behavior in others, even in dire circumstances.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Aimiel

I don't believe that I'm afraid of anything. I also don't believe that our 'standard' lifestyle, as believers, should be doubt. I believe that when The Word of God says that we should 'believe all things,' that it means that we don't need to be full of doubt, disputation and run around being critical, just like the world. We are supposed to 'believe the best' of people, and that type of faith is the type that often produces good behavior in others, even in dire circumstances.

Asking questions doesn't mean necessarily that you doubt something. It just means you want to expand your knowledge.

If scripture is true and can be proven, then criticism of scripture shouldn't hold up to close scrutiny. And challenging what you believe can either reinforce and strengthen what you already know, or lead you elsewhere. That's true of all things academic, as well as spiritual.

I think a lot of Christians are either afraid to question what they've been told or are just trained to terminate certain trains of thought instinctively. And that just ain't cool.

 

[Aimiel]

I agree, asking questions can be good. Being a continual doubter and being critical of everything that one comes across, regarding faith is, though.

I think that most Christians that I know, personally, have asked the deep questions, early-on in their faith. I know that my best friend and I fought with one another (part of the reason I enjoy TOL so much) over every single doubt we could come up with. We would oppose one another, just to get to the bottom of every doubt we could think of. I also believe that faith and understanding are a lifelong search, not something to be considered 'grasped,' and there are far too many that think, "I'm someone 'special,' and have already 'obtained.' " That is error, and is rampant.

 

[c.moore]

don`t know if I posted this here or not but here is a letter my Mythology teacher wrote me.

You
cannot make a true atheist into a religious person and
you cannot, no matter what you present, convince
someone that Peter Pan is real who knows that Peter
Pan is just a fictional character. You do not go to
Christians to ask if Christianity is real, or Muslims
to find out if Islam is the true religion. I have to
teach you how to do credible research. So far the
only credible information that you've encountered are
the documents which I've given you. All the critics
you've presented, without exception, are Christians.
How can you go a Ford dealer and ask him if the
competition's car is better than the Ford . If you go
to your church and ask them if ten percent is wrong,
they're going to use scripture after scripture to tell
you that the church is right and that you should pay
them. They wouldn't listen because true believers
don't really hear anything other than their belief.
I'm totally not interested in any more Christian
information about how true Christianity is. People
who come up with proof that Jesus and Christianity is
real are people who believed in the lie to begin with.
Their arguments are like a computer loop and I've
really heard them all throughout the years. It is
useless to have such a discussion with them, they're
brain-dead when it comes to reality and they remain
either oppressed and/or work hard to keep other in
their slavish belief. These people will believe many
simple and illogical things, quoting scripture to
support the lie. It's like quoting the words of a
Peter Pan play to say how true it is. There is no
proof that Peter Pan was real, that's impossible, but
it can be proved that Peter Pan is false, that's a
fact no matter who believe it. If you believe that
Christ is real, then give the church your ten percent
and continue as you've been, blindly believing and
unquestioning. Blind and unquestioning Faith is
accepted as the best quality of a Christian or Muslim
etc.. If you look to the Bible to find truth, you
will not find it. If you look at other Christians,
even the lier's who claim that they were atheists but
by some miracle became Christians, you will not find
it. If you look for the truth about Santa Clause and
you go to a child who believe, that's not credible
research, because you're not looking for facts but
belief to back up belief. That is known as the blind
leading the blind. Believers cannot accept truth
because they fear that the foundations of their belief
would be destroyed and they're right. If they accept
truth then they simply have no reason to believe.

 

[billwald]

>If Jesus Christ is not real, then you have no hope beyond this life.

Not TRUE! Bad logic. The OT could be 100% correct and the NT 100% error. If Jesus is not the messiah then the world is no worse off before Jesus was born and one would then look to Jewish theology for theological problems.

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by c.moore's teechur

You cannot make a true atheist into a religious person and you cannot, no matter what you present, convince someone that Peter Pan is real who knows that Peter Pan is just a fictional character.

There are no ahteists. There are those who deny that God exists, but to be an atheist, one would have to have proof that there is no God, and there isn't any, because He is, and because He designed us to be unable to prove or disprove His Existence (outside of His own soverign demonstration or 'planting' of that proof. Peter Pan might be known to be 'fictional' but exists, nevertheless, in the dreams and imaginations of free people all over this planet.

You do not go to Christians to ask if Christianity is real, or Muslims to find out if Islam is the true religion.

I can't think of a more illogical statement. I guess if she thought she had a counterfeit $100 bill, she'd go to a criminal and ask whether or not it was real? No, she'd go to the bank.

I have to teach you how to do credible research. So far the only credible information that you've encountered are the documents which I've given you.

I think we see where this is going... just listen to me, I'll straighten you out, since I have all the answers.

All the critics you've presented, without exception, are Christians.

We criticize lies, yes.

How can you go a Ford dealer and ask him if the competition's car is better than the Ford.

For one thing, most Ford dealers are more honest than any of the others, and Fords are, after all, everyone knows, the best cars. Why even bother asking the question? Because if you want to know the truth, you have to ask those who are professing it and living it. Christianity is truth, and provides proof of itself.

If you go to your church and ask them if ten percent is wrong, they're going to use scripture after scripture to tell you that the church is right and that you should pay them.

I guess we're talking about the tithe. My earliest pastor told me (I still stick to it) to only give what The Lord lays on your heart and when and where He lays it on your heart to give. If more people did that, there'd be a lot less phoney churches. God doesn't lay it upon anyone's heart to tithe to fools.

They wouldn't listen because true believers don't really hear anything other than their belief.

It works better than only hearing un-belief.

I'm totally not interested in any more Christian information about how true Christianity is.

Well, OK then, stop thinking about it, and talking about it.

People who come up with proof that Jesus and Christianity is real are people who believed in the lie to begin with.

God gives us faith in Him and in His Word. If we turn away from that faith, and turn to fables, it is our own fault.

Their arguments are like a computer loop and I've really heard them all throughout the years.

That would make you omniscient.

It is useless to have such a discussion with them, they're brain-dead when it comes to reality and they remain either oppressed and/or work hard to keep other in their slavish belief.

Denial and namecalling. Very intelligent.

These people will believe many simple and illogical things, quoting scripture to support the lie.

God is real and Jesus is The Christ, whether we quote the scriptures or just tell the truth, truth is true, whether someone ever finds out or not.

It's like quoting the words of a Peter Pan play to say how true it is.

Bangarrang!!!

There is no proof that Peter Pan was real, that's impossible, but it can be proved that Peter Pan is false, that's a fact no matter who believe it.

I don't see that she's even proven that Peter Pan is 'false' whatever that might mean. He exists. He is a character in a story that is fictitious, but, nevertheless, the character exists.

If you believe that Christ is real, then give the church your ten percent and continue as you've been, blindly believing and unquestioning.

It is not 'blind faith' that we follow, it is because our eyes are open to The Truth that we realize that Jesus is Lord and Christ.

Blind and unquestioning Faith is accepted as the best quality of a Christian or Muslim etc..

We don't value those who are blind, any more than the world does. Muslims do, but not Christianity. We need to have a firm grip on reality, and know Whom it is that we believe in, so that we are ready to give an answer for the questions that arise about the faith that is in us.

If you look to the Bible to find truth, you will not find it.

Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life; and by looking to The Word of God, we are able to find out how to enter into a relationship with Him.

If you look at other Christians, even the lier's who claim that they were atheists but by some miracle became Christians, you will not find it.

Maybe not, but if you look at Jesus, you'll find Truth.

If you look for the truth about Santa Clause and you go to a child who believe, that's not credible research, because you're not looking for facts but belief to back up belief.

Unless we come to The Lord, believing that He exists, because He says He does, just as children believe in Santa Clause because their 'natural' parents say he does, we will not see Him.

That is known as the blind leading the blind.

No, the blind leading the blind would be c.moore's teacher and any haphazard follower she might have picked up along the way.

Believers cannot accept truth because they fear that the foundations of their belief would be destroyed and they're right.

Believers know The Truth, and try to share Him, every chance we get. We aren't 'afraid' of any dis-proof, because there isn't any.

If they accept truth then they simply have no reason to believe.

Which truth? That Peter Pan is false or that God doesn't exist, because someone claiming to have heard 'everything' knows better, because she has searched the entire universe and found that there is no God? That's perfectly ridiculous. :kookoo:

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by billwald

>If Jesus Christ is not real, then you have no hope beyond this life.

Not TRUE! Bad logic. The OT could be 100% correct and the NT 100% error. If Jesus is not the messiah then the world is no worse off before Jesus was born and one would then look to Jewish theology for theological problems.

How do you know this true, about Jesus and not a myth ??

What proofs?

 

[jjjg]

Christ's influence on history is enough to prove that he was real.

We don't know all the facts about Cleopatra, but she was real and who else has been studied by historians more than Christ.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by jjjg

Christ's influence on history is enough to prove that he was real.

We don't know all the facts about Cleopatra, but she was real and who else has been studied by historians more than Christ.

what history books was Jesus included outside the bible???

Why he wasn`t in history schools books??

 

[Berean Todd]

Originally posted by c.moore

what history books was Jesus included outside the bible???

Why he wasn`t in history schools books??

Jesus was recorded by many non-Biblical sources. Josephus is most famous - and yes I realize that a portion of the Josephus text was corrupted and added to by latter Christians, but the core of it is still an unbelievably amazing picture of Jesus. Other sources exist as well, such as Tacitus the Roman historian, Pliny a Roman governer and others.

"They were in the habit of meeting before dawn on a fixed day. They would recite in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a God, and would bind themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any criminal act, but rather that they would not commit any fraud, theft or adultery, nor betray any trust nor refuse to restore a deposit on demand. This done, they would disperse, and then they would meet again later to eat together (but the food was quite ordinary and harmless)."

-Letter from Pliny to Trajan, 112 AD

"To dispel the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and treated with the most extreme punishments, some people, popularly known as Christians, whose disgraceful activities were notorious. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed when Tiberius was Emperor, by order of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. But the deadly cult, though checked for a time, was now breaking out again not only in Judea, the birthplace of this evil, but even throughout Rome, where all the nasty and disgusting ideas from all over the world pour in and find a ready following."

-Tacitus, Annals 15 : 44


There is nothing in ancient history that is near as well attested as to the life and existence of Jesus Christ.

 

[jjjg]

He was in all the schoolbook. Holy roman empire. All of Wetern culture has been influenced by Christianity.

 

[jjjg]

Try to look up Constantine's wife. I think she wrote a lot.