can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?
- Thread starter c.moore
- Start date
There is evidence! Tons of it! Whole mountains of it! That's what I and others here have been trying to tell you! Do you want it or not? Why ask for the info if your going to ignore it when it handed to you on a silver platter? I don't get it?
Resting in Him,
Clete
firechyld
New member
Turbo
I have actually heard of that papyrus... one of my lecturers is a renowned expert in papyri reading, so my religious studies course last semester was a little heavy on that area.
I left it out because of the debate still raging in the academic community regarding it, which wasn't entirely fair of me... it is technically evidence, regarless of controversy.
I'll revise my statement to "next to nothing, excluding the Ipuwer papyrus."
c.moore...
Well, technically absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...
That said, does it really matter? If you manage to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus existed, the question becomes whether or not he was actually the being Christians believe him to be.
*shrug* Short of being there, you can't prove everything about Jesus, if he in fact existed. And if there's even one thing that you cannot prove, that's the thing that you'll be asked to prove.
Stop stressing over it.
I have actually heard of that papyrus... one of my lecturers is a renowned expert in papyri reading, so my religious studies course last semester was a little heavy on that area.
I left it out because of the debate still raging in the academic community regarding it, which wasn't entirely fair of me... it is technically evidence, regarless of controversy.
I'll revise my statement to "next to nothing, excluding the Ipuwer papyrus."
c.moore...
Well, technically absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...
That said, does it really matter? If you manage to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus existed, the question becomes whether or not he was actually the being Christians believe him to be.
*shrug* Short of being there, you can't prove everything about Jesus, if he in fact existed. And if there's even one thing that you cannot prove, that's the thing that you'll be asked to prove.
Stop stressing over it.
c.moore
New member
Ok , I pass them onto the teacher all these evidence.
So tell me again where is the proof , maybe i can see it in the Egysian culture as well , and all the story of Moses , and evidence that so many people travel through the desert, and there is tons of historcal facts out side of the bible , or even abdout Adam and eve existance, and about the characters in the bible as Paul, and Peter , and Mary.
Maybe you have the eveidence of the bone or dust of Virgin Mary sence she was not resurrected.
c.moore
New member
firechyld
It is like trying to find my roots.
I must accept the fact of slavery, and maybe I must understand the fact where slavery came from, and as doing this I found alot of slavery ,and wars, massave murderings and brutal killings and mostly with religions, and christians.
It even shown me the warrior attitiude and back gound of christianity and other religions, wowww, i wounder where was the love.
It is like trying to find my roots.
I must accept the fact of slavery, and maybe I must understand the fact where slavery came from, and as doing this I found alot of slavery ,and wars, massave murderings and brutal killings and mostly with religions, and christians.
It even shown me the warrior attitiude and back gound of christianity and other religions, wowww, i wounder where was the love.
c.moore
New member
The pagan fertility goddess Oestre was linked to the resurrection, and her feast day became known as Easter.
Does anyone know if this is where the people say the Jesus story began with the goddess, including the death and burial , resurrection ???
This teacher also said the stars have many storys and many of the story`s in the bible came from the stars worshipers or is astrological .
Does anyone know if this is where the people say the Jesus story began with the goddess, including the death and burial , resurrection ???
This teacher also said the stars have many storys and many of the story`s in the bible came from the stars worshipers or is astrological .
c.moore
New member
The teacher said many christian try to use evidence of a Jewish man called Josephus.
the teacher responce and research on this was this:
Another famous historian of the period was Flavius Josephus, who lived from around 37AD to 97 AD. (Look in the INDEX of The Christ Conspiracy and find the pages about Josephus’ works. See what she says). In his "Antiquities" he wrote two passages of interest, the first referring to James as "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." (20:9). The second reference is more explicit,
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
“ Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.�
Our surviving sources for this passage are Greek manuscripts, the oldest of which dates from the 9th century. However there are citations in other writers of antiquity.
The first to cite this passage of Antiquities was Eusebius writing in about A.D. 324, who quotes the passage in essentially the same form. So it is clear that this passage existed in manuscripts of the Antiquities of the Jews at that time.
However, it is significant that Origen writing in about A.D. 240, fails to mention it, even though he does mention the less significant reference to Jesus as brother of James that occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (book 20, ch. 9). This has given rise to the suggestion that the Testimonium Flavianum did not exist in the earliest copies, or did not exist in that form.
Those historians disposed to reject the passage suggest that passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and that the thread of continuity is interrupted by this passage. The passage 3.3 also is supposed to fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus, according to the Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, edited by K. H. Rengstorf, 2002. Consequently these historians dismiss the Testimonium as an interpolation. It is also argued that 'He was [the] Christ.' can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian.
the theologian Origen (about 185-254 AD) said that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah (Contra Celsum, 1:47). Edwin M. Yamauchi, Ph.D., says of this text, " Today there's a remarkable consensus among both Jewish and Christian scholars (religious sources. Unreliable) that the passage as a whole is authentic
Another writer, from around 52 AD, was Thallus. None of his works are extant, but some fragments are preserved by other writers. One was Julius Africanus, who wrote about 221(unreliable. Julius Africanus is writing about what about Thallus said 200 years later. How can anyone trust that as proof. Where are these origional writings of Thallus. Thallus works have been tampered with by Christians. Unreliable). He says:
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (Extant Writings, 18 in the Ante-Nicene Fathers) (Nowhere in the ancient world did anyone record an eclipse at this time except here and in the bible? Strange).
the teacher responce and research on this was this:
Another famous historian of the period was Flavius Josephus, who lived from around 37AD to 97 AD. (Look in the INDEX of The Christ Conspiracy and find the pages about Josephus’ works. See what she says). In his "Antiquities" he wrote two passages of interest, the first referring to James as "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." (20:9). The second reference is more explicit,
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
“ Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.�
Our surviving sources for this passage are Greek manuscripts, the oldest of which dates from the 9th century. However there are citations in other writers of antiquity.
The first to cite this passage of Antiquities was Eusebius writing in about A.D. 324, who quotes the passage in essentially the same form. So it is clear that this passage existed in manuscripts of the Antiquities of the Jews at that time.
However, it is significant that Origen writing in about A.D. 240, fails to mention it, even though he does mention the less significant reference to Jesus as brother of James that occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (book 20, ch. 9). This has given rise to the suggestion that the Testimonium Flavianum did not exist in the earliest copies, or did not exist in that form.
Those historians disposed to reject the passage suggest that passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and that the thread of continuity is interrupted by this passage. The passage 3.3 also is supposed to fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus, according to the Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, edited by K. H. Rengstorf, 2002. Consequently these historians dismiss the Testimonium as an interpolation. It is also argued that 'He was [the] Christ.' can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian.
the theologian Origen (about 185-254 AD) said that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah (Contra Celsum, 1:47). Edwin M. Yamauchi, Ph.D., says of this text, " Today there's a remarkable consensus among both Jewish and Christian scholars (religious sources. Unreliable) that the passage as a whole is authentic
Another writer, from around 52 AD, was Thallus. None of his works are extant, but some fragments are preserved by other writers. One was Julius Africanus, who wrote about 221(unreliable. Julius Africanus is writing about what about Thallus said 200 years later. How can anyone trust that as proof. Where are these origional writings of Thallus. Thallus works have been tampered with by Christians. Unreliable). He says:
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (Extant Writings, 18 in the Ante-Nicene Fathers) (Nowhere in the ancient world did anyone record an eclipse at this time except here and in the bible? Strange).
Look, I don't get you. In McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" he goes on for some 17 pages specifically about the historicity of Jesus Christ alone. The book itself is 687 pages of almost entirely historical evidence pertaining to one aspect of Christianity or another, most of which is secular in nature. And that's only the first resource I recommended to you.
I'm beginning to wonder whether this is idiot teacher of yours is beginning to get to you. If so, I recommend that you spend less energy on the emotional aspects of your relationship with God and do some hard core intellectual home work. There is simply no reason why any Christian should be afraid of history. Indeed, our faith is based in history!
1Cr 15: 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
If Jesus didn't exist, then he should as heck didn't rise from the dead!
Now, I've given you the tools, it's up to you to do the work. I'm not here to spoon feed you the arguments. Besides, if you don't know them already, you need to learn them for yourself. Your faith is on shaky ground otherwise.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Mustard Seed
New member
c.moore,
I was wondering if you could suggest a book to your 'teacher'. It's called "Abraham in Egypt" by Hugh Nibley. I am curious to see what his reaction would be to it. Oh and firechyld might be interested in it also as it talks about papyrus.
I was wondering if you could suggest a book to your 'teacher'. It's called "Abraham in Egypt" by Hugh Nibley. I am curious to see what his reaction would be to it. Oh and firechyld might be interested in it also as it talks about papyrus.
One Eyed Jack
New member
I'm not aware of anyone that denies the similarities between the Biblical flood account and the mythical Gilgamesh story. Sure, there are similarities -- the best way to tell a lie is to mix a little truth in with it. Hence the similarities.
Rolf Ernst
New member
Continue with your ad hominem attacks, Clete. It is easier for you to do than respond to Scripture proofs.
I was not intending to address you personally. I did not call your name.
I know your penchant for acusing others rather than dealing with scripture. If I had known you would respond or that you were active on the thread, I would have used my time in a way that did not welcome your comments. Continue your rant. I will not be listening.
I was not intending to address you personally. I did not call your name.
I know your penchant for acusing others rather than dealing with scripture. If I had known you would respond or that you were active on the thread, I would have used my time in a way that did not welcome your comments. Continue your rant. I will not be listening.
brother Willi
New member
c moore
PLEASE ask your teacher to prove his beliefs.
you have all the info needed to prove to any thinking peron that Jesus really existed.
do not let your teacher think his words have meaning.
anyone with a mind can decide the truth for themselves
PLEASE ask your teacher to prove his beliefs.
you have all the info needed to prove to any thinking peron that Jesus really existed.
do not let your teacher think his words have meaning.
anyone with a mind can decide the truth for themselves
temple2006
New member
cmoore...Are you asking if the historical Jesus existed? The historian Josephus mentions him and it is accepted that such a man existed.
firechyld
New member
That I can respect.
Good luck.I heartily recommend that anyone with an interest in Christianity, be it intellectual or devotional, read Jospehus. It offers an interesting perspective on the four gospels, particularly as an example of war time writings.
As for c.moore's question about the similarities between the story of Jesus and other religions, there's an entire field of study devoted to comparitive theologies. The similarities between various religions cannot be denied, and more appear as one studies further.
*shrug*
I, of course, am not going to attempt to offer any explanation for this. But it's a very interesting topic.
brother Willi
New member
ask your teacher
if the original "PLACE ANY DOCUMENT HERE" does not exist, does this prove it never did?
if the original "PLACE ANY DOCUMENT HERE" does not exist, does this prove it never did?
What are you talking about? Do you even know what ad hominem means?
You directly addressed me in your last mindless post and quoted a Scripture that is ripped out of its context (as usual) and then proceeded to attack me for no reason whatsoever! After defending myself I give you yet another opportunity to act your age and respond to the original question and this is the nonsense I get in return. It would be funny if it weren't so ridiculous!
I ask you again, and we'll see if it goes a third time without even being acknowledged and being a valid question much less actually being answered.
Does any such person exist, too whom God does not wish to reveal Himself? And why isn't the Bible itself that revelation to anyone who can read or be read too?
Now can you answer the question or can't you?
Ignore me if you like; the point is that others will not.
You can be all angry at me or even hate my guts if you want, I don't frankly care. As long as you spew out heretical nonsense, you can expect me to call you on it. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that if you had had an ounce of self control you would have realized that I wasn't picking a fight with you and hadn't accused you of anything to begin with.
And one last thing.
You are making a habit of lying...
This is an outright lie and you know it.
As long as people are respectful, so am I but if someone wants to throw it down, I don't back off. You came at me with attitude and gave you back more attitude than you could handle because I mix my attitude with the truth. Now you need to repent and stop this habitual lying and grow up. One good step in that direction would be for you to respectfully respond to my questions as asked. Although, I regretfully expect that you will not do so.
Resting in Him,
:Clete:
One Eyed Jack
New member
Whoever made the story up was. Either that, or they were filling in the details with their imagination.
brother Willi
New member
ever play that game in school when a story gets past around a room, and it changes?
these are either 2 diffwerent floods, or the same flood as told by a different culture.
im guessing thats what your sayin