Calvinism

[musterion]

Sorry that question got lost in the fray.

I believe, that's how I know am am one of the elect.

Romans 10:9-10

ahem...

 

[Clete]

I stated that it is the non-Calvinist who thinks he or she possess the ability of choice to believe the Gospel. Hence, the non-Calvinists view their choice as something God "sees" from eternity and thereby ratifies.

Well not all non-Calvinists have this view.

Some of us just believe that God gives us a choice and we choose.

Really simple.

The Calvinist views Scripture as teaching all progeny of Adam are fallen in Adam, that is we all are sinners from birth and sin because we are sinners. Accordingly, the person who is not yet "born again" (regenerated) possesses no moral ability to choose to believe the Good News.

AMR

Except that Scripture does not teach this! It teaches neither of the two doctrines mentioned here. It does not teach that we are born guilty before God and it does not teach that because someone has sinned that they are therefore incapable of doing anything morally right. In fact, it teaches the opposite of these things - the absolute polar opposite. The bible teaches that God is just and that therefore a man will only be punished for his OWN sin, not the sin of his fathers before him, including Adam. The Bible is also replete with examples of all sorts of people believing the gospel. Of course AMR will claim that they are all of the "elect" which we know because they believed, which is just a perfect example of the unfalsifiable nature of their doctrine.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[musterion]

Well not all non-Calvinists have this view.

Some of us just believe that God gives us a choice and we choose.

Really simple.


Except that Scripture does not teach this! It teaches neither of the two doctrines mentioned here. It does not teach that we are born guilty before God and it does not teach that because someone has sinned that they are therefore incapable of doing anything morally right. In fact, it teaches the opposite of these things - the absolute polar opposite. The bible teaches that God is just and that therefore a man will only be punished for his OWN sin, not the sin of his fathers before him, including Adam. The Bible is also replete with examples of all sorts of people believing the gospel. Of course AMR will claim that they are all of the "elect" which we know because they believed, which is just a perfect example of the unfalsifiable nature of their doctrine.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I know of no one who says we all are punished for Adam's sin; only that we inherit sin from him and, with it, death and condemnation, "for all have sinned." Outside of Christ, we are still, as it were, "in Adam" (1 Cor 15:22).

 

[Clete]

No.

Interestingly, not even Arminius taught that man could simply hear and trust Christ all on thier own without the intervening influence of the Holy Spirit.

Case in point, the following articles 3 and 4 of the Remonstrance:

"Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."
Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of a good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting, awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, in as much as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places."​

How about you, do you think we need the Holy Spirit to beleive, or do we have the ability to trust Christ in the power of our own flesh?

Its a trick question!

Don't accept the premise!

Ask him what does he mean by "intervening influence of the Holy Spirit"?

What he means, whether he admits it or not, is, "Unless God (The Holt Spirit) forces you to believe, you cannot believe."

Ask him to explain how someone can be forced to love.

He will not answer you at all or else he will explain how some word you thought you understood the meaning of doesn't really mean what you thought. Not because he's a particularly bad guy or Satan incarnate but because he has no other alternative. Either some how love isn't a choice or his version of Christianity is false.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I know of no one who says we all are punished for Adam's sin; only that we inherit sin from him and, with it, death and condemnation, "for all have sinned." Outside of Christ, we are still, as it were, "in Adam" (1 Cor 15:22).

You just contradicted yourself.

What exactly do you think sin is?

It isn't some magic dust that gets mixed in with your DNA.

And there are several people on this website who will unabashedly tell you that babies that die go to Hell. Hell is a punishment, musterion. They (most Calvinists) believe God sends babies to Hell and they'll tell you in the same breath that God is just.

Their minds do not work!

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. Romans 5 is where we learn about how God dealt with Adam's sin and its consequences. No one will go to Hell except as a result for their own sin - no one - ever - period. (Ezekiel 18)

 

[Dialogos]

ahem...

This is one of the explanations that Calvin gives that I probably reject. Calvin tends to wax too philosophical at times IMHO.

As I have said many times. Calvin isn't my pope. He doesn't speak Ex Cathedra, which means that I am free to say that he was wrong on some things.

I do see the quandry that Calvin is trying to address.

Some claim to believe for awhile and then fall away, Just as Jesus said some would. Luke 8:13 comes to mind.

Now if you are a consistent Armenian, you just claim that they lost their salvation. They chose to opt in and subsequently chose to opt out.

If you are a Southern Baptist, like the author of the article you cited, then you will likely respond in some fashion like the Calvinist does which is to claim that they never really were saved because God doesn't start something and then fail at it (Phil 1:6)

What I never have understood is why some Arminians, or Open Theists for that matter, can believe in eternal security. If someone has the power and freedom to opt into believing in Christ then why can't they just opt out of believing in Christ. It would seem to me that eternal security is totally at odds with synergistic theologies of salvation.

:idunno:

Do you believe in eternal security Musterion?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

So nobody can simply hear, believe, and trust Jesus Christ on their own ? It just was or wasn't meant to be ?

If you deny that all are born in sin and are sinners, then I suppose it is easy to believe all possess the ability to choose wisely. That you did and your neighbor did not should give you great pause to consider exactly why you were so wise, so open, so willing to choose rightly.

AMR

 

[Ktoyou]

I stated that it is the non-Calvinist who thinks he or she possess the ability of choice to believe the Gospel. Hence, the non-Calvinists view their choice as something God "sees" from eternity and thereby ratifies.

The Calvinist views Scripture as teaching all progeny of Adam are fallen in Adam, that is we all are sinners from birth and sin because we are sinners. Accordingly, the person who is not yet "born again" (regenerated) possesses no moral ability to choose to believe the Good News.

AMR

Well not all non-Calvinists have this view.

Some of us just believe that God gives us a choice and we choose.

Really simple.


Except that Scripture does not teach this! It teaches neither of the two doctrines mentioned here. It does not teach that we are born guilty before God and it does not teach that because someone has sinned that they are therefore incapable of doing anything morally right. In fact, it teaches the opposite of these things - the absolute polar opposite. The bible teaches that God is just and that therefore a man will only be punished for his OWN sin, not the sin of his fathers before him, including Adam. The Bible is also replete with examples of all sorts of people believing the gospel. Of course AMR will claim that they are all of the "elect" which we know because they believed, which is just a perfect example of the unfalsifiable nature of their doctrine.

Resting in Him,
Clete

These are the two views and both stated well. To fix a point in-between is difficult, and yet it remains necessary to base the truth, "man does not choose salvation by works, but faith alone", thus God chooses us based on our faith alone.

We do choose to who we are not what we are. The good will hear the word.

 

[flintstoned]

How do you know you are one of the elect?

How do you know you are a regenerated believer?

 

[Clete]

What I never have understood is why some Arminians, or Open Theists for that matter, can believe in eternal security. If someone has the power and freedom to opt into believing in Christ then why can't they just opt out of believing in Christ. It would seem to me that eternal security is totally at odds with synergistic theologies of salvation.

There are several positions on this held by various open theists but the most consistent, both logically and biblically, is that once a person has been baptized into the Body of Christ that he is sealed by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit is given to the believer as an earnest payment, guaranteeing his safe delivery to God on the day of redemption (2 Cor. 1:22 & 5:5; Eph. 1:13 & 4:30).

What happens during or after the day of redemption is another issue. There is no reason to believe that God would force anyone to stay in heaven if they didn't want to be there. Who wouldn't want to be there, you ask? I don't know - ask Lucifer.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[bsmitts]

Christian character, which includes faith, is produced by the Holy Spirit, not by self effort. Galatians 5:22

 

[Dialogos]

Its a trick question!

Don't accept the premise!

Ask him what does he mean by "intervening influence of the Holy Spirit"?

Yeah! Lets ask him!


You could ask me yourself. I'd do you the courtesy of an answer.

What he means, whether he admits it or not, is, "Unless God (The Holt Spirit) forces you to believe, you cannot believe."

Nope.

:nono: This is not what he means and he won't admit it because he doesn't believe it.

What he does mean (tyring of talking about myself in the third person) is that unless the Holy Spirit regenerates you, you can't understand the things of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14). Even Arminius got this and invented the idea of "prevenient grace."

Ask him to explain how someone can be forced to love.

I don't think anyone can. Nor do I think that God forces the elect to love Him. I do think that once a person has been regenerated, and can see God for Who He is, and what the Son of God has done for him, that man irresistibly falls in love with a God Who wouldn't hold back His own Son in order to redeem him.

Ask Clete why he thinks someone could see God for Who He really is and understand what Jesus has done for him and not love Him?

:idunno:

He will not answer you at all...

Just did...

or else he will explain how some word you thought you understood the meaning of doesn't really mean what you thought.

Didn't do that either....

Not because he's a particularly bad guy or Satan incarnate....

Awww. Clete, that's the nicest thing you've ever said about me.




For what it's worth. I don't think you are satan incarnate either...

:cheers:

 

[Clete]

If you deny that all are born in sin and are sinners, then I suppose it is easy to believe all possess the ability to choose wisely. That you did and your neighbor did not should give you great pause to consider exactly why you were so wise, so open, so willing to choose rightly.

AMR

Notice the implication here that sinners are incapable of choosing as a result of their sin (or Adam's or whoever's).

AMR does not believe that even he can choose. Every syllable of every word he speaks was, according to him, predestined by God before time began and he has no ability whatever to do otherwise.

Isn't it fascinating how they (Calvinists) compartmentalize their minds so that such inconsistencies never occur to them while they speak? They never notice, unless some mean "heretic" like me comes along to point out that their doctrine is so full of inherent inconsistencies that they are constantly tripping over their own doctrines.

So which is it AMR, are sinners incapable of making moral choices because they're sinners or is it because no one can choose anything at all?

Since I know he won't answer me, someone should ask "Ask Mr. Religion" haw any action can be considered moral (or immoral for that matter) if the person performing it did not choose to do so.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[flintstoned]

These are the two views and both stated well. To fix a point in-between is difficult, and yet it remains necessary to base the truth, "man does not choose salvation by works, but faith alone", thus God chooses us based on our faith alone.

We do choose to who we are not what we are. The good will hear the word.

We have faith as a consequence of God having chosen us (before the foundation of the world).

 

[Dialogos]

There are several positions on this held by various open theists but the most consistent, both logically and biblically, is that once a person has been baptized into the Body of Christ that he is sealed by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit is given to the believer as an earnest payment, guaranteeing his safe delivery to God on the day of redemption (2 Cor. 1:22 & 5:5; Eph. 1:13 & 4:30).

Right. Incidentally I think that most Calvinists would agree that the Holy Spirit does indwell believers at the point of believe (and probably not before) and that this is, in fact, the earnest payment guaranteeing the safe deliver to God on the day of redemption.

The question is, why can the man resist and reject the work of the Holy Spirit before conversion, but apparently not after?

Could not a person make another free will decision to give back that earnest payment?

If no, then why does it appear that man has more freedom to reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit before conversion than he does after?

There is no reason to believe that God would force anyone to stay in heaven if they didn't want to be there.

There is no reason to believe that regenerated, justified and glorified humans ever need to be forced to stay in heaven.

So why don't they want to leave?

Who wouldn't want to be there, you ask?

Why yes, yes I just did.

I don't know - ask Lucifer.

I've got a "no contact" policy with that loser.

 

[Dialogos]

I used to believe that as well, until a very patient Calvinist asked me how I could substantiate that a man born in what is now modern day Panama in 2 A.D., who lived his whole life never knowing about Jesus, got an equal chance for salvation as the Apostle Paul, for whom Jesus made a post accession appearance to convert.

Can you tell us how the ancient Panamanian and Paul got an equal chance for salvation?

Bumped for Ktoyou...

 

[Clete]

Yeah! Lets ask him!


You could ask me yourself. I'd do you the courtesy of an answer.

Oh!Good. I thought you were ignoring my posts. My appologies for referring to you in the third person.

Nope.

:nono: This is not what he means and he won't admit it because he doesn't believe it.

What he does mean (tyring of talking about myself in the third person) is that unless the Holy Spirit regenerates you, you can't understand the things of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14). Even Arminius got this and invented the idea of "prevenient grace."

I still think its a bit of a trick and this is certainly not Calvinist theology.

The trick is that you, presuming that you haven't left Calvinism altogether, believe in Irresistible Grace (The "I" in TULIP). In other words, what you call "regeneration by the Spirit" is practically, essentially and logically the exact same thing as being made to believe because you hold to the notion that the regenerate cannot do otherwise.

I don't think anyone can. Nor do I think that God forces the elect to love Him. I do think that once a person has been regenerated, and can see God for Who He is, and what the Son of God has done for him, that man irresistibly falls in love with a God Who wouldn't hold back His own Son in order to redeem him.

This is just semantics!

Its semantics because you do not mean irresistible in the sense of something that is really really desirable but you mean it in a literal sense where there is no choice about it. Its no different than believing that God puts a ring in your nose.

Ask Clete why he thinks someone could see God for Who He really is understand the what Jesus has done for him and not love Him?

There are those who have done far worse than that! Lucifer stood in the direct presence of God the Father as did a full third of the angelic host and they all CHOSE to rebel against God. You deny that they chose, of course but that doesn't change the fact that they did so.

Just did...

A pleasant surprise. Thank you. - Seriously.

Didn't do that either....

Well yeah, you pretty much did. See above.

Awww. Clete, that's the nicest thing you've ever said about me.





For what it's worth. I don't think you are satan incarnate either...

:cheers:

Good deal! :up:

Don't be too nice to me though, people will start to think that you're not a real Calvinist!


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[iouae]

"Can you tell us how the ancient Panamanian and Paul got an equal chance for salvation?"

Putting Rev 20:5 together with Ezek 37, those who have never known Christ will be resurrected and placed back on earth and given a chance to know and accept Christ in the 8M.

 

[Dialogos]

"Can you tell us how the ancient Panamanian and Paul got an equal chance for salvation?"

Putting Rev 20:5 together with Ezek 37, those who have never known Christ will be resurrected and placed back on earth and given a chance to know and accept Christ in the 8M.

Already debunked....

 

[iouae]

God gives us free will to accept Him.
We use that free will to subject ourselves to His will.