Calvinism

[musterion]

I wasn't quarreling but alright then, if you'd rather not discuss it I'll let it go.

I know but that's where it would have ended up. It did already with another OT, about a year ago. One of the most unpleasant discussions I've ever had on TOL.

 

[Dialogos]

How convenient. That way the insecurity of election-based saving faith and possible reprobation/spurious faith is completely avoided.

More to the point, I believe Phil 1:6.

No. I would say they were never saved because they never believed the saving Gospel of the grace of God, which is in no way a failure of God's whatsoever.

As would I.

The fact you would ask the question is what has led me, over the years, to wonder about many Calvinists as well as "Arminians." If you really don't know Paul's answer to that question - and if you did you wouldn't ask - then you possibly haven't believed his Gospel. But we've been over that many times, at length, as I have with "Arminians." I'm not going to bother anymore. They can't see it. Nor can you.

Paul's answer to the question is that clearly God grants, according to the riches of His glory through the Holy Spirit in the inner being of a believer, the faith through which Christ dwells in our hearts and that we may (according to the same riches of His glory) be granted to be rooted and grounded in love and strengthened to comprehend the breadth, length, height and depth of the love of Christ so that we may be filled with all the fullness of God.

The ability to have the faith through which Christ dwells in our hearts is a gift.

"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith-- that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."​

(Ephesians 3:16-19)

 

[musterion]

More to the point, I believe Phil 1:6.

Only if you first know you are among those elected to even have that work done within you, instead of actually having a false, deluded, someday-fall-away "faith." Nothing else past this point is worth discussing with you because that's Square One, and you cannot get out of it.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Nope. Non-Calvinists may think they have the ability to choose to believe, but they don't necessarily think that God "looks down through the corridors of time" and ratifies it. That simply does not follow. SOME people might think that, but certainly not all, and probably not a majority of non-Cals.

You perhaps misunderstand me. If you are not an open theist, you grant that God knows the future. If you are a non-Calvinist, you grant that you choose to believe and not that God actually resurrects you from your state of spiritual death, wherein you had no ability whatsoever to believe. Hence, God's foreknowledge of your choosing to believe in the future is because he saw in the future that you would believe. Hence, the non-Calvinist will say that the "elect" are those that God knew would choose to believe.

This non-Cal believes that the Holy Spirit convinces and convicts a person that they are a sinner, that they are condemned to Hell by God because of their sin, that they need a savior, that salvation is by repentance and faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Every step of the way the Holy Spirit is drawing the sinner.

At some point there is a moment where it all clicks into place, all things become clear, the TRUTH is revealed and saving faith results in the sinner. At this moment God regenerates the sinner. Man does not "flip the switch", God does it.

I have not stated anything different when describing the non-Calvinist. You claim you possess the ability to be convinced, are perceptive enough to be convicted, and that your faith comes before your "re-birth". Of course, regeneration to the Calvinist assumes no one has the ability to be convinced, convicted, such that he or she will choose rightly. Rather, if and only until said person is regenerated beforehand will the person then not not believe.

So why is it that you, being woo'd by the Spirit all along the way were convinced, convicted, and so on, got to the ponit where you saw it all click into place and chose wisely, yet your neighbor, presumably be also so woo'd by the Spirit chose wrongly?

AMR

 

[Dialogos]

Only if you first know you are among those elected to even have that work done within you,

Where do you get this idea?

I was a believer long before I was a 5 pointer. I even spent many long nights arguing with a 5 pointer friend of mine.

He won, eventually.

...instead of actually having a false, deluded, someday-fall-away "faith."

There are those who have a false, deluded, someday-fall-away "faith."

Calvin didn't invent this idea, this is straight out of Jesus lips.

" As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. (Mat 13:20-22 ESV)"​

If you deny that some have a false, deluded. someday-fall-away "faith" that's not an argument with Calvin, its an argument with Jesus.

 

[musterion]

Where do you get this idea?.

From you.

You believe, on no evidence, that He chose YOU in eternity past to benefit from the Blood of the Son. You may not have always believed that but you believe it now, so let's run with it...

There are those who have a false, deluded, someday-fall-away "faith."

Indeed. I do not deny it. But they'll fall away simply because they've chosen to refuse to receive a love of the Truth whereby they might (!!!) be saved...the faith God expects, requires and deserves has been put in the wrong thing. They will not fall away because God "passed over" them in eternity past nor actively reprobated them (which are the same exact thing, just relabeled for the use of cowards and deceivers).

So once again we arrive right back at your inescapable Square One: if you're right, then no one - including you - can know he is one of God's chosen elect, personally picked out to persevere and not fall away. That's exactly why the P is the last letter of TULIP. That's exactly why the carnal, fruit checking false gospel of Lordship Salvation came into existence and is so damnably popular.

No...if you're correct, it is just as probable, if not more probable, that you are one of the presumed majority which He reprobated, to whom He may be suffering to grant a degree of "arrogated or temporal grace" to make His glory all the greater when He finally reveals you as a false vessel fitted for destruction the whole time, and burns you. You just can't know.

So if you're consistent, admit that the certainty you claim isn't be based on believing the saving Gospel--even reprobates can hypothetically do that for a season. No, to claim certainty, you have to lay claim to election itself, because that's what must preceed regeneration, which in turn enables genuine, effectual acceptance of the saving Gospel.

Problem is, that election cannot be authenticated nor ascertained until after you die.

 

[chrysostom]

so why doesn't tol have a calvinist check off box?

 

[musterion]

so why doesn't tol have a calvinist check off box?

We should, it's a religion unto itself.

 

[Mocking You]

You perhaps misunderstand me. If you are not an open theist, you grant that God knows the future. If you are a non-Calvinist, you grant that you choose to believe and not that God actually resurrects you from your state of spiritual death, wherein you had no ability whatsoever to believe. Hence, God's foreknowledge of your choosing to believe in the future is because he saw in the future that you would believe. Hence, the non-Calvinist will say that the "elect" are those that God knew would choose to believe.

You speak like a politician, defining their opponents beliefs and positions for them and then striking them down. That's called building a strawman argument. Calvinists are good at it. (So are non-Cals.)

I have not stated anything different when describing the non-Calvinist. You claim you possess the ability to be convinced, are perceptive enough to be convicted, and that your faith comes before your "re-birth".

No, the Holy Spirit convinces and convicts me. The Holy Spirit enables me to be perceptive; I don't do it on my own. My faith does come before my re-birth; my saving faith comes from God and at that moment I am reborn.

(and there you go again, putting words in my mouth and redefining what I say so that you may make your point.)

Of course, regeneration to the Calvinist assumes no one has the ability to be convinced, convicted, such that he or she will choose rightly. Rather, if and only until said person is regenerated beforehand will the person then not not believe.

This non-Cal believes that no one has the innate ability to be convinced or convicted, the Holy Spirit convinces and convicts them.

Here is the London Confession of Faith, 1689:
"When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he frees him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good."

Here is how I would have written it:
"When God translates a sinner into the state of grace, he frees him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good."

So why is it that you, being woo'd by the Spirit all along the way were convinced, convicted, and so on, got to the ponit where you saw it all click into place and chose wisely, yet your neighbor, presumably be also so woo'd by the Spirit chose wrongly?

AMR

"It's a mystery."




[Yay! My 1,001st post. Fitting it should be on Calvinism.]

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

So nobody can simply hear, believe, and trust Jesus Christ on their own ? It just was or wasn't meant to be ?

By "on their own" I assume you mean the person possesses the moral ability to choose to call upon the name of the Lord. If so, I believe the answer is a decidedly "no".

Why? All are born sinners in Adam.

Adam was our federal representative, the representative of all future progeny of Adam. When Adam disobeyed, all mankind fell with him. We all sin because we are sinners. In our fallen and corrupted state, there is total inability to do good in the eyes of God. Even the "good" the lost do, such as giving to charity, walking the old lady across the road, etc., is done with the wrong motives, not done for the glory of God.

Left to their own wills, the lost will never call upon the name of the Lord, for their are quite literally spiritually dead...not wounded...but dead. Indeed, the unbeliever

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Clearly from the above small sampling of the many teachings in Holy Writ about the total inability of the lost—Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14—it is clear that the lost have no moral ability to seek after the righteousness of God.

It is only when God the Holy Spirit regeneratively replaces their lost hearts of stone with one of flesh (Eze. 36:26) that the lost are given the moral ability to believe and then irrevocably evidence the first fruits of their regeneration—faith and repentance.

We should be in awe that God saves anyone, for all are born fallen in Adam and deserve no mercy from God. The miracle is that God mercifully saves even one person, and not the great many that cannot be numbered. Would that all give God all the glory (one-hundred percent) for their salvation rather than clinging on to some humanistic notion of their own wisdom, their supposed openness to being "wooed" by the Holy Spirit, choosing rightly while their neighbor chooses wrongly, etc.

And, yes, from God's perspective, what happens cannot not happen, for all that happens ultimately derives its actuality from God, Who upholds the universe using the various secondary means of His created order. This should give us great comfort, for it teaches us that God, perfectly holy, is directly involved in His universe, bringing about all that happens for the glory He deserves.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Here is the London Confession of Faith, 1689:
"When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he frees him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good."

Here is how I would have written it:
"When God translates a sinner into the state of grace, he frees him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good."

Given your affinity for the LBCF (of which you only partially quoted the section above), do you disagree with:

"This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead. " (1689 LBCF 10:2)

AMR

 

[Mocking You]

Given your affinity for the LBCF (of which you only partially quoted the section above), do you disagree with:

"This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead. " (1689 LBCF 10:2)

AMR

Yes, I disagree with it. This has God regenerating the person SO THAT he may believe. The Bible says that man believes the gospel AND THEN he is regenerated.

John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Also, you will not find the idea of an "effectual" call in the Bible.

 

[Totton Linnet]

We [the church] were chosen [elect] and predestined before the world began to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace.

God KNEW us and predestined us and chose us [election] to be conformed to the image of His beloved Son.


......that does not preclude anybody else from being saved.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Damnation is death....God said don't do it.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Yes, I disagree with it. This has God regenerating the person SO THAT he may believe. The Bible says that man believes the gospel AND THEN he is regenerated.

John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Also, you will not find the idea of an "effectual" call in the Bible.

Swapping verses can continue all day. No one can believe who is not first made able to believe: Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14. The Bible actually declares the state of the lost quite clearly. Now you can import some Romanistic and Wesleyan prevenient grace into the matter, and argue that fallen man is not so corrupted by the Fall that he retains a "seed" of goodness that permits him the ability to believe, but there is no warrant for this found in Scripture. It is but another attempt to give man more freedom than he actually possesses, the stuff of synergistic salvation. Sigh.

Lazarus is applicable here when considering the spiritual state of the lost as described in the passages above and elsewhere.

The rendering in John 20:31 "that you may believe that the Christ, the Son of God, is Jesus" is about the proper identity of He who is being rejected by the audience. Attempting to make that carry the freight of a soteriological "free will" argument supporting "belief first, re-birth second" is just more freight than the passage can bear.

Ephesian 1:13 speaks to the plain fact that it is by the means of hearing of the Gospel that God's children are ordinarily brought into the Kingdom. The passage speaks nothing to what you hope to argue, that the lost possess the ability to believe before they have been regenerated from above. In fact the surrounding context and the whole counsel of Scripture stand against you here.


AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

We [the church] were chosen [elect] and predestined before the world began to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace.

God KNEW us and predestined us and chose us [election] to be conformed to the image of His beloved Son.


......that does not preclude anybody else from being saved.

What are you saying here? Are these "anybody elses" you claim are not precluded from being saved not part of the church?

AMR

 

[Mocking You]

Swapping verses can continue all day. No one can believe who is not first made able to believe: Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14.

None of those verses say anything about being made able to believe before one can believe. None. You are reading your theology into the plain meaning of those verses. I ask anyone with an open mind to read those verses and see for themselves.

The Bible actually declares the state of the lost quite clearly. Now you can import some Romanistic and Wesleyan prevenient grace into the matter, and argue that fallen man is not so corrupted by the Fall that he retains a "seed" of goodness that permits him the ability to believe, but there is no warrant for this found in Scripture. It is but another attempt to give man more freedom than he actually possesses, the stuff of synergistic salvation. Sigh.

I've already asked you to stop putting words in my mouth. Is that the only way you know how to debate? Build a strawman and then attack it. Pathetic.

Lazarus is applicable here when considering the spiritual state of the lost as described in the passages above and elsewhere.

No, the Lazarus analogy fails. The story of Lazarus is not a parable for Jesus quickening the "dead in trespasses and sins" the Lazarus story is a literal picture of the bodily resurrection.

The rendering in John 20:31 "that you may believe that the Christ, the Son of God, is Jesus" is about the proper identity of He who is being rejected by the audience. Attempting to make that carry the freight of a soteriological "free will" argument supporting "belief first, re-birth second" is just more freight than the passage can bear.

Again, you are reading the plain meaning of the verse through the lenses of your theology. Anyone can see the plain meaning.

Ephesian 1:13 speaks to the plain fact that it is by the means of hearing of the Gospel that God's children are ordinarily brought into the Kingdom. The passage speaks nothing to what you hope to argue, that the lost possess the ability to believe before they have been regenerated from above. In fact the surrounding context and the whole counsel of Scripture stand against you here.

And once again you inject your slant onto the text. This verse shows clearly the steps of salvation and the chronological order, just as the verse in John does.

 

[Totton Linnet]

What are you saying here? Are these "anybody elses" you claim are not precluded from being saved not part of the church?

AMR

How can they be? you see them at the judgement...but we are passed from judgement to life.

The general resurrection and judgement takes place after the gathering of God's elect does it not? we shall meet the Lord in the clouds "so shall we ever be with the Lord"

But these we see being judged are judged according to works

 

[Dialogos]

Yes, I disagree with it. This has God regenerating the person SO THAT he may believe. The Bible says that man believes the gospel AND THEN he is regenerated.

Really, where?

John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Not here it doesn't.

Eternal life is blessing enjoyed by those, and only by those, who believe and continue believing (that's why "believing" is a present tense participle πιστευοντες). The action of the participle happens concurrent with the action of the main verb ("to have" εχηρε).

Its like saying, "by breathing you have life in this world."

Everyone gets that this is true, if you want to continue living, you had better continue breathing. But no one would argue that you weren't alive prior to taking your first breath as a newborn baby, you were living in your mother's womb for 9 months or so before taking your first breath.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

This is absolutely true. And I would agree that we are marked in Him when we believed. But being sealed by the Holy Spirit and being regenerated by the Holy Spirit are not the same event.

We know that being "born again" enables us to have hope because of what Peter tells us:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1Pe 1:3 ESV)

We didn't cause ourselves to be born again because we chose to have a living hope, the text says that God caused us to be born again into a living hope. Which necessarily means that our being born again precedes our having that living hope.

Also, you will not find the idea of an "effectual" call in the Bible.

How would you describe being caused to be born again into a living hope then?

Surely not an "ineffectual" call...?

 

[Dialogos]

From you.

You believe, on no evidence, that He chose YOU in eternity past to benefit from the Blood of the Son.

What do you mean, "on no evidence"?

The evidence that I am among the elect is the same that you are or anyone else is.

I confess that Jesus is Lord. I believe that God raised Him from the dead.

What's so confusing about that?

Now I suppose that some may ask, "how do you know that you aren't among those who will eventually fall away from the faith?"

I reply, "how do you know that you aren't one of those who will eventually fall out of love with your spouse and leave her?"

Those who answer, "I don't know that I won't." Probably didn't make a genuine "till death do us part" kind of commitment to their spouse, and those who aren't sure they won't fall away from their faith may not have a "those who endure to the end" kind of faith.

I trust that the God who gave me the faith in the first place will, by His grace, grant me the faith to persevere.

Who are you trusting to keep you from stumbling, Musterion?

I suppose there is always the non-Lordship OSAS approach but that is easily dismissed as un-biblical.

Furthermore, those who aim to hold that approach and remain logically consistent must eventually concede that it would be possible for someone to get saved on Sunday and renounce Christ a week later maintaining that renunciation until they die and still be saved.

So much for Phil 1:6 with that approach.

Regarding the Parable of the Soils you said:

Indeed. I do not deny it. But they'll fall away simply because they've chosen to refuse to receive a love of the Truth whereby they might (!!!) be saved...the faith God expects, requires and deserves has been put in the wrong thing.

Where can I find this explanation in Jesus' explanation of the parable?

Jesus' explanation is that those who hold fast with an honest and good heart are the ones who bear fruit with patience.

Since Jeremiah 17:9 is true I must conclude that only God can give me a good and sincere heart?

Who are you trusting in to make the soil of your heart good and sincere?

:think:

They will not fall away because God "passed over" them in eternity past nor actively reprobated them (which are the same exact thing, just relabeled for the use of cowards and deceivers).

Musterion, most of us Calvinist already know what you think of us, and we don't care, so you can save yourself the unnecessary keystrokes of your ad hominem attacks.

Your attempt to force all Calvinists into accepting equal ultimacy fails here because there is a difference between the way God elects the saved and the way God reprobates the unsaved. The fact that you don't like that we reject equal ultimacy is irrelevant.

Our not believing what you want us to believe may be an inconvenience to you because it makes it harder for you to force Calvinists into a corner but that doesn't erase the fact that we Calvinists see a difference in the way God elects and the way God reprobates because the bible makes that difference very clear.

So once again we arrive right back at your inescapable Square One: if you're right, then no one - including you - can know he is one of God's chosen elect, personally picked out to persevere and not fall away.

Already addressed above.