why doesn't tol have a calvinist check off box?
we have a lot of them here
we should know who they are
we have a lot of them here
we should know who they are
Calvinism
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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Mocking You
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How do you know you are one of the elect?
Mocking You
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Clete, the favorite answer of Calvinists when they are put into a theological box is, "it's a mystery".
musterion
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Know who else has always used that line as a cop out when their doctrine doesn't make sense? Hint: it's the close cousins of the Reformed.
they could be mad
musterion
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Nope. We're happy to say "dunno" if we dunno. But we don't cop out. Try again.
Mocking You
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Guessing here: Catholics?
"Antinomy" is the theological word for it, yes!
They do not mind if their theology doesn't make sense and in fact they fully expect that any good theology wouldn't make sense and couldn't be made to make sense. They eagerly quote, "God's thoughts our higher than our thoughts" thinking that the irrational is somehow higher than the rational and that nonsense is the hallmark of the holy.
It is a condition without remedy. They firmly believe that to accept the irrational as truth is what it means to have faith. The more willing they are to accept nonsense the more pious they feel. It's a deadly trap with no escape. This, by itself, is sufficient to prove their theology false. They've rejected the rationally falsifiable faith of the bible for an entirely unfalsifiable fairy tale akin to the belief in UFO's, Big Foot or the Loch Ness Monster.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Virtually everyone!
Nearly every religion or sect you can name is guilty of it. Everyone from Catholic to Baptist to Buddhist to Taoist to Branch Davidian appeals to antinomy when their doctrine bumps into the constraints of reality (i.e. sound reason).
As for me, I agree with Dr. John Sanders...
"The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders
Resting in Him,
Clete
Dialogos
Well-known member
Is there a place to do so?Chrysostom said:
Because for some being “reformed” means being more than supporting the 5 points of Calvinism. For others, reformed means adhering to the 5 points. I’d rather spend time getting to the bottom of what the bible says than spending a lot of time making sure we all get labelled correctly.Chrysostom said:
I don’t know why dead Calvinists called things what they did. I just know what the doctrine of total depravity actually teaches compared to what it doesn’t.Chrysostom said:
It’s a we. Now, part of the problem is defining double predestination. What most people think of when they say “double predestination” is “equal ultimacy.” I reject equal ultimacy, which is really a characteristic of hyper-Calvinism. I accept double predestination as defined by Spoul here.Chrysostom said:
Given that most people erroneously equate double predestination with equal ultimacy, it is easier to say that we don’t believe in double predestination.
I would have been more accurate for me to have said, “we don’t believe in double predestination as it is so very often misunderstood."
I affirm double predestination as it is defined here, and most Calvinists probably do as well.
bsmitts
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In my own opinion - which, admittedly, is not that of an expert or scholar - I feel that it all comes down to whether you believe that God's foreknowledge is the same as predestination. I happen to believe it is, and that since God knows who will be saved, they have been destined by God to be such. But I don't know who those people are, so I am to share the Gospel with all.
(I am what happens when a Southern Baptist develops doubts about free will.)
Foreknowledge is not predestination. All have a choice. Joshua 24:15, and not choosing is choosing not to. It is not God's will that anyone be lost. It was not God's plan that the first Adam sinned. But praise God, Christ came and he did obey. He obeyed all the way to that dreaded cross to give you eternal life. You don't have to understand God. Believe him! He loves you.
Ask Mr. Religion
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BR,
Calvinists do not say this. Rather, we say he who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
We further say that those that call upon the name of the Lord are chosen by God before they were born and His choice is not based upon any merit of these persons. Hence, the name "elect" as used in Scripture. Moreover, God does not reveal who these "elect" persons are so we are commanded by God to spread the Good News promiscuously, for it is by the ordinary means of the hearing of the Gospel that the elect of God are brought into the Kingdom.
The distinction between the non-Calvinist and the Calvinist is that the non-Calvinist believes he or she has the autonomy to actually choose to believe. The non-Calvinist also declares that God gives this type of "free will" to all his moral creatures. So, when God created all that exists, he looked down the corridors of time, saw who will choose rightly, and declared them the "elect". (Note: open theists, who deny God knows the future, generally would have God being very, very, smart, and able to predict with a high degree of accuracy who will believe.)
Does this clarify things for you, BR?
AMR
Mocking You
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Bumping...
bsmitts
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Please clarify why you state that you do not believe a person "has the autonomy to actually "choose" to believe." Then you say something about God looking down through time to declare the elect those who "choose" rightly? Do they choose or not?
bsmitts
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Disregard my last post. I didn't realize you were referring to non Calvinists on both points.
Ask Mr. Religion
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I stated that it is the non-Calvinist who thinks he or she possess the ability of choice to believe the Gospel. Hence, the non-Calvinists view their choice as something God "sees" from eternity and thereby ratifies.
The Calvinist views Scripture as teaching all progeny of Adam are fallen in Adam, that is we all are sinners from birth and sin because we are sinners. Accordingly, the person who is not yet "born again" (regenerated) possesses no moral ability to choose to believe the Good News.
AMR
So nobody can simply hear, believe, and trust Jesus Christ on their own ? It just was or wasn't meant to be ?
Dialogos
Well-known member
Sorry that question got lost in the fray.
I believe, that's how I know am am one of the elect.
Romans 10:9-10
Dialogos
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No.
Interestingly, not even Arminius taught that man could simply hear and trust Christ all on thier own without the intervening influence of the Holy Spirit.
Case in point, the following articles 3 and 4 of the Remonstrance:
"Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."
Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of a good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting, awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, in as much as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places."
Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of a good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting, awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, in as much as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places."
How about you, do you think we need the Holy Spirit to beleive, or do we have the ability to trust Christ in the power of our own flesh?